Deeply disturbing (Part Neuf)

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I agree with Justice Oakvale, and Vice Chair of the TPP.

As a Senator and Chair of the TPP, I am deeply concerned by this and wish to echo that my friend and colleague Senator Bacon King make his intentions in relation to this office clear and unambiguous and to do it soon.

[Enderman]

This wouldn't have happened if I was Senator

SWE for Senate!

[rpryor03]

Y'all should have just voted for me like the two other smart people.

[Adam Griffin]

That is disappointing. Oh well, we have procedures for a reason. BK needs to step up, or resign.

But looking over the odd collection of half-baked 'attacks' in this thread (the effect of most being that any future criticism of something genuinely awful the President does will likely be dismissed by many as just another hackish attack) one can't help thinking though that Griffin, far from thriving in 'retirement', increasingly resembles an old man slipping into senility, losing control of his bowels in the street as people politely pretend not to notice. Deeply disturbed indeed.

LOL

[Adam Griffin]

More deeply disturbing developments from the Pacific are now coming to light, in the same mold as the ones discovered earlier this month.

Governor Simfan has been effectively MIA from his duties as Governor for approximately ten days. After posting nothing for five days, a leave of absence was requested during the holidays. That leave of absence ended four days ago, but still we see no activity whatsoever in the Pacific Government or from the Governor.

In addition to this, the GM Independence Act voting booth, which was opened on November 1st, has yet to be closed and the results have yet to be certified by the Governor.

The last action taken by the Council was approximately one week ago, on November 24th, when Former Chief Justice Ebowed was confirmed as Pacific CJO.


While Councillor Averroes has recently introduced multiple pieces of legislation, none of them have been brought to the floor. It has been four days.

In addition to this, the following two bills – passed by the Council and landing on the Governor's desk on November 1 – still await the Governor's signature or veto:

Governor, the following two bills have passed the Council and await your signature or veto.

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Such deeply disturbing trends seem to now be the status quo in the Pacific with the current leadership.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

As a citizen of the Pacific this is indeed distressing news. We will have to create a new order.

[Simfan34]

More deeply disturbing developments from the Pacific are now coming to light, in the same mold as the ones discovered earlier this month...

Erm, no. Your concerns have grown stale, I think. I am here. The government is functioning, we have bills on the floor.

I won't deny that many, indeed most, of your criticisms are valid, but your astute observation of my lapses would have served the Pacific would have been been of greater use to the Pacific and been taken not of far sooner, had you contacted me via private message or even made your remarks on my official thread, rather than in here, which seems to resemble a venue for you to use political opponents' misdeeds as political weapons more than anything else...

I'm an... easily distractable person, to put it mildly, and it's been very easy for me to come on the Atlas to see what business there is to attend to, and finding none, proceed to waste a great deal of valuable time browsing the forum when I have work to do. Particularly in recent weeks, where I've had a great deal of work and considerably little sleep, I've tended to become rather obsessive about avoiding potential distractions, and hence my virtual absence from the forum (and the IRC, if you'd notice).

This, of course, does not justify my not doing my job, absolutely not. Being Governor, even in an online election game, is not a "distraction" but a responsibility. I fully acknowledge I've neglected that responsibility recently, and the blame for that lies squarely on my feet. But the Pacific cannot be a one-man show. I've probably approached about two dozen forumers, at this point, about registering in the Pacific, with diminishing success over time and "excessive" success with a few (it seems all of our senior officials have become federal officeholders as of late).

While I can say that with the semester coming to a close fairly soon, a month of break, and the start of a new semester that would be as slow as always, I'd imagine I'd be on here more often in the next few months then I have as of late. But if we to prevent ourselves from getting into situations like this again, we need to boost activity across the board and not just at the top, so that a governor can't go AWOL for a week before anyone notices; this probably entails structural reform.

I will note, once again, that I have long pushed the position that Atlasia simply cannot sustain five regions with the active population it has, which, I think it could be said, has remained pretty constant for the past few years. We've always had a "sickly" region, and while, once again, this doesn't absolve me of responsibility, we can either keep on using these sorts of incidents to make partisan pot-shots or we can talk about structural reform, namely regional consolidation (and not blatant gerrymandering under the guise of such, either).

And now I have a meeting to go to that started 20 minutes ago... do feel free to show your deep concern about anything else I may be forgetting while I'm gone.

[Bacon King]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The rounds of deeply disturbing news just keep rolling in, this time: in the form of an unexpected impeachment proceeding for one of our Senators!

ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT AGAINST SENATOR BACON KING

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Having failed to post a singly post in the Fantasy Government for seven consecutive days (his last post: November 24, 2014, 05:17:45 pm), an article of impeachment shall be automatically placed before Senate in accordance with Article I, Section 2, Clause 3 of the Constitution and thus considered accordingly

Best regards,
Senator Windjammer

Wow, nobody saw that coming! Deeply disturbing, indeed!

With all due respect Adam please don't be such a prick

I spent literally four days straight preparing my girlfriend's grandmother's house for thanksgiving, then there was thanksgiving and black friday, then I was able to spend time with my brother for the first time in a year. It's a holiday- I don't see what I did wrong, especially considering we allow Supreme Court justices to go half a year without posting. I didn't realize it had been a whole week but come on dude who would pick Atlasia over family

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Well guys, I tried my best to save the region, I really did. I thought we were making such progress too as I left office in July!

[Simfan34]

In short I think what we're all saying here is that we'd appreciate constructive criticism as opposed to... concern trolling, the latter of which this rather appears to be.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

In short I think what we're all saying here is that we'd appreciate constructive criticism as opposed to... concern trolling, the latter of which this rather appears to be.

But remember, Griffin's "retiring" from Atlasia

[Adam Griffin]

But remember, Griffin's "retiring" from Atlasia

I've always said that I'm retiring from party politics. If you consider this "party politics", then you're sorely mistaken. I'm merely in the same boat as many other people who remained active but no longer had to maintain any elected responsibilities (I'm coining this condition "Napoleon Retirement Syndrome"), in part because I acknowledge that I do not have the time or dedication to give to any elected office right now, and therefore won't seek one. Speaking of retirement, when is your next unscheduled deregistration?

In short I think what we're all saying here is that we'd appreciate constructive criticism as opposed to... concern trolling, the latter of which this rather appears to be.

Oooh, oooh! Let me try:

Do the fycking job you decided to run for in the first place, or get the fyck out of the job. It's not my job to coddle you or tell you to do your job; if anything, it's the people who elected you's responsibility and your own.

With all due respect Adam please don't be such a prick

I spent literally four days straight preparing my girlfriend's grandmother's house for thanksgiving, then there was thanksgiving and black friday, then I was able to spend time with my brother for the first time in a year. It's a holiday- I don't see what I did wrong, especially considering we allow Supreme Court justices to go half a year without posting. I didn't realize it had been a whole week but come on dude who would pick Atlasia over family

Certainly you know better than to say what's in bold there; obviously comparing the two branches in such a way is a terrible and reckless comparison.

And in regards to both Simfan and BK, one must merely ask: how little are others who play the game's free time worth in ya'll's eyes? The assertion that neither of you literally could be bothered to jump in for a week because of holiday stuff and school is, well, a bit much. Practically everyone on here has one or both of those responsibilities right now as well; I suppose had they taken the same approach, the entire game would have just ground to a halt! But this is a recurring issue with both of you, so I frankly take all of this with a grain of salt.

Furthermore (BK), you made a total of 16 posts on the forum during the time in question, including some that would have taken more than just a minute or two to type out. Ditto for Simfan, who made a comparable number of posts during the same time, many in much more detail. I think the reality is that y'all just didn't consider this particular board of much interest.


But those who are guilty of massive and repetitive inactivity (and those who support them) can continue to spend many times more energy attacking me and my motivations as they do apologizing for what they did and addressing the situation if they so choose, and I'll just keep humming along and bringing these transgressions - you know, the ones that actually impact game play more than anything else - to the attention of voters.

[Adam Griffin]

Another round of deeply disturbing news has come to my attention: this time, in the form of unawareness of recently-passed statute, Senate feet-dragging and Senate vacancies!

In April, I recall digging through statute after (some instance I can't remember) and finding out that we had a hole in statute and constitutional provisions for what to do when a Senate vacancy occurred shortly before the end of the term. I came up with an idea to fix this, and then-Senator Talleyrand introduce legislation (shortly before I was inaugurated as Senator) to address the situation.

In early May, the Senate approved The Proportional Representation Act Fix of 2014, which consisted of two parts. The first was a constitutional amendment (approved by voters), which tied the cut-off for special elections to the end of the term (instead of the previous month's election for the new term). The second was statute, signed into law by then-President Duke, to allow/clarify that major parties could appoint replacement Senators if a member of their party/Senator were to resign their seat less than five weeks before the election.

Recently, Dr. Cynic was confirmed as GM to replace an otherwise failing and inactive institution. Sadly, this confirmation hearing took more than one month - despite the fact that there were no controversies surrounding the nominee. While reforms to the GM office were occurring during this time, I see no reason why the Senate could not move to confirm the nominee as quickly as possible anyway.

Dr. Cynic decided to become an independent two weeks or so before his confirmation to avoid any criticisms as a potential partisan GM, and I can applaud the sentiment. Unfortunately, we will now have a Senate vacancy for the remainder of the term because multiple entities failed to remember or take advantage of the Proportional Representation Act Fix of 2014. Deeply disturbing!

Had Dr. Cynic simply remained a member of TPP until his confirmation was complete and then resigned/became an independent, TPP Chair Polnut would have been able to appoint his replacement. Because the switch to independent occurred before this, however, and because he was an independent at the time of resignation, this seat shall remain vacant for the remainder of the term (because the resignation took place less than 35 days before the end of the term, and the final revision to the act doesn't specify that a special election can occur for Senators who resign and aren't members of major parties: a potential idea for improvement of the existing statute/constitution).

There are multiple angles to address here:

1) The first would be the Senator/GM in question. Now, in his defense, Dr. Cynic was not active during the time that this statute and amendment were being passed, and would have less than ample knowledge of its existence. On the other hand, it is worth saying that the first use of the PRAF of 2014 was done by me when I resigned my seat a few weeks early in August - and Dr. Cynic was who I chose to replace me in the Senate. I do not recall precisely if we discussed the particulars of the legislation before he was appointed, so he can't really be blamed. At any rate, blame shouldn't really be foisted upon him, in part because...

2) The Senate and the administration spent way too much time trying to confirm him. Had the Senate acted to confirm a perfectly-competent GM in a reasonable time-frame - instead of diddling about and waiting on an amendment that ultimately wasn't going to abolish the office in question - Dr. Cynic would have been confirmed as a GM - as an independent - before the five-week window, and a special election would have been called.

3) The Party of the former Senator also can be scrutinized for not being aware of this recently-passed legislation. I was perplexed when I saw this all unfolding, and wondered to myself how no one else in the People's Party was aware that they were potentially losing a free Senate seat for the remainder of the term, especially when the debate on the bill occurred so recently. I saw it as merely a possibility at first, expecting rather that the Senate would confirm Dr. Cynic well within the time frame for a special election to be triggered and that it wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, this all dragged out so long that I forgot about it and, had Dr. Cynic been a member of TPP at the time of confirmation/resignation, TPP would have been able to appoint that seat, so my initial worries actually did manifest.

Because of the combination of these events, we will now have an unnecessary vacancy in the Senate (combined likely with several other inactive Senators) for the remainder of the term, which is of course deeply disturbing. Particularly with respect to election law, we all must do a better job at knowing what is on the books and utilizing them to ensure that situations like these don't occur in the future.

[free my dawg]

So it is now somehow our fault, as a party, that Cynic decided to switch - even though multiple sources in the party made him aware of it, and he made this decision to stay as an independent on his own.

Holy Christ, you're more desperate to attack us than your party's only governor is for a First Gentleman.

[Adam Griffin]

The Party was well aware that Cynic's confirmation would create a vacancy if he was an independent at the time of his resignation, and at least two people made him aware of this via private message.

Then why exactly did this unfold in the way in which it did? It was my understanding that Cynic left only because of the perceived conflict of being GM, and not because of any other issues.

[Adam Griffin]

So it is now somehow our fault, as a party, that Cynic decided to switch - even though multiple sources in the party made him aware of it, and he made this decision to stay as an independent on his own.

Holy Christ, you're more desperate to attack us than your party's only governor is for a First Gentleman.

Merely asking questions here. As I clearly laid out, there are multiple pieces of the puzzle. It's not all about you.

[Adam Griffin]

I'll leave it to the people who were involved in those conversations to explain their result.

That said, the possibility that Cynic's confirmation would leave a Senate seat vacant for nearly a month was the subject of considerable angst among members of our party for several weeks, and our leadership did everything that they could to prevent it from happening.

Well, at the very least, I'm glad to hear that others were aware of the developments. I was sorely disappointed to see this happen after it appeared no one noticed and after we worked to minimize the chance of this occurring.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The TPP left Franzl's seat litterally on the table back in 2013, but of course they were dissolving at the time.

I think people also forgot about the effect of Christmas on the timing of the elections as well.

[Dr. Cynic]

Allow me to speak for my decisions here. This is my POV of everything that went down. Make what you will of them:

I was going to register as an independent no matter what as GM, because I believe the office shouldn't be involved with party politics. When I registered as an independent, I was messaged by multiple people, who I will not name because they have a right to the privacy of our conversations making me aware and asking if I was aware of it. I explained that I was aware and I received an understanding and fair reply. There were no hard feelings. No feuding.

Now, why did I register as an independent early? Here's the deal on that from my perspective: My confirmation was being slowed so that a Senator could be appointed. I spoke with the President over this and made my displeasure clear. The office of GM has always been most important to me and I wanted to get started at it as soon as I possibly could. In order to break the stalemate and because I was going to do it anyway, I registered as an independent to speed up the process and get the confirmation process going. There would be a special election rather than an appointed Senator, but I felt it needed to be done. Now, here's where it goes a little bit awry and my displeasure was pretty evident:

The confirmation process was smooth to start with. However, through whatever reason, it was heavily delayed even before the start of the holiday. I should've been at this job at least a week before I was actually confirmed and in the confirmation thread, I and several other Senators made no secret how pissed and impatient they and I were becoming. Also, I felt stuck in a limbo as a sitting Senator. I had no idea when I'd be confirmed, so how could I focus on working on and debating legislation if I could be confirmed at any time and would it create a conflict of interest? Those were the questions I was asking myself internally and it went on longer than it should have.

It's not my desire to lay blame at anyone over this situation. Not the leadership of TPP, not the President, not anyone. I've explained my action over that as best I can and my feelings of the time. Now, I could've gone back and re-registered with TPP to avoid all this, but I didn't because then I'd have to re-register again as an independent as I intended to do anyway. To have done so would have made me both feel and look ridiculous. I had hoped to be confirmed in time for a special election, but I wasn't.

Now, my job is to make the office of GM, which has been dysfunctional for years, work as best I can. That is what I intend to do... Unless my statements here have pissed everyone off and I'm fired tomorrow.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I'll leave it to the people who were involved in those conversations to explain their result.

That said, the possibility that Cynic's confirmation would leave a Senate seat vacant for nearly a month was the subject of considerable angst among members of our party for several weeks, and our leadership did everything that they could to prevent it from happening.

Well, at the very least, I'm glad to hear that others were aware of the developments. I was sorely disappointed to see this happen after it appeared no one noticed and after we worked to minimize the chance of this occurring.

We were aware of what was happening. We did speak with Cynic about his decision. Those of us in the leadership would obviously have preferred to not have it happen the way it did. But in the end, the call was Cynic's and I had to respect the call he made.

[Adam Griffin]

Allow me to speak for my decisions here. This is my POV of everything that went down. Make what you will of them:

I was going to register as an independent no matter what as GM, because I believe the office shouldn't be involved with party politics. When I registered as an independent, I was messaged by multiple people, who I will not name because they have a right to the privacy of our conversations making me aware and asking if I was aware of it. I explained that I was aware and I received an understanding and fair reply. There were no hard feelings. No feuding.

Now, why did I register as an independent early? Here's the deal on that from my perspective: My confirmation was being slowed so that a Senator could be appointed. I spoke with the President over this and made my displeasure clear. The office of GM has always been most important to me and I wanted to get started at it as soon as I possibly could. In order to break the stalemate and because I was going to do it anyway, I registered as an independent to speed up the process and get the confirmation process going. There would be a special election rather than an appointed Senator, but I felt it needed to be done. Now, here's where it goes a little bit awry and my displeasure was pretty evident:

The confirmation process was smooth to start with. However, through whatever reason, it was heavily delayed even before the start of the holiday. I should've been at this job at least a week before I was actually confirmed and in the confirmation thread, I and several other Senators made no secret how pissed and impatient they and I were becoming. Also, I felt stuck in a limbo as a sitting Senator. I had no idea when I'd be confirmed, so how could I focus on working on and debating legislation if I could be confirmed at any time and would it create a conflict of interest? Those were the questions I was asking myself internally and it went on longer than it should have.

It's not my desire to lay blame at anyone over this situation. Not the leadership of TPP, not the President, not anyone. I've explained my action over that as best I can and my feelings of the time. Now, I could've gone back and re-registered with TPP to avoid all this, but I didn't because then I'd have to re-register again as an independent as I intended to do anyway. To have done so would have made me both feel and look ridiculous. I had hoped to be confirmed in time for a special election, but I wasn't.

Now, my job is to make the office of GM, which has been dysfunctional for years, work as best I can. That is what I intend to do... Unless my statements here have pissed everyone off and I'm fired tomorrow.

...Wow. This brings up a lot of questions for sure, but I'm too tired right now to try to really delve deep.

So basically, your nomination was being slowed down (for a month, no less) by your party and/or the administration because they were in fact acutely aware of this, and wanted to make an appointment rather than have a special election? Man, I had no idea at the time how right I might have actually been...

[Dr. Cynic]

Allow me to speak for my decisions here. This is my POV of everything that went down. Make what you will of them:

I was going to register as an independent no matter what as GM, because I believe the office shouldn't be involved with party politics. When I registered as an independent, I was messaged by multiple people, who I will not name because they have a right to the privacy of our conversations making me aware and asking if I was aware of it. I explained that I was aware and I received an understanding and fair reply. There were no hard feelings. No feuding.

Now, why did I register as an independent early? Here's the deal on that from my perspective: My confirmation was being slowed so that a Senator could be appointed. I spoke with the President over this and made my displeasure clear. The office of GM has always been most important to me and I wanted to get started at it as soon as I possibly could. In order to break the stalemate and because I was going to do it anyway, I registered as an independent to speed up the process and get the confirmation process going. There would be a special election rather than an appointed Senator, but I felt it needed to be done. Now, here's where it goes a little bit awry and my displeasure was pretty evident:

The confirmation process was smooth to start with. However, through whatever reason, it was heavily delayed even before the start of the holiday. I should've been at this job at least a week before I was actually confirmed and in the confirmation thread, I and several other Senators made no secret how pissed and impatient they and I were becoming. Also, I felt stuck in a limbo as a sitting Senator. I had no idea when I'd be confirmed, so how could I focus on working on and debating legislation if I could be confirmed at any time and would it create a conflict of interest? Those were the questions I was asking myself internally and it went on longer than it should have.

It's not my desire to lay blame at anyone over this situation. Not the leadership of TPP, not the President, not anyone. I've explained my action over that as best I can and my feelings of the time. Now, I could've gone back and re-registered with TPP to avoid all this, but I didn't because then I'd have to re-register again as an independent as I intended to do anyway. To have done so would have made me both feel and look ridiculous. I had hoped to be confirmed in time for a special election, but I wasn't.

Now, my job is to make the office of GM, which has been dysfunctional for years, work as best I can. That is what I intend to do... Unless my statements here have pissed everyone off and I'm fired tomorrow.

...Wow. This brings up a lot of questions for sure, but I'm too tired right now to try to really delve deep.

So basically, your nomination was being slowed down (for a month, no less) by your party and/or the administration because they were in fact acutely aware of this, and wanted to make an appointment rather than have a special election? Man, I had no idea at the time how right I might have actually been...

I can't speak for what the party wanted. The thing that I got most agitated with was that the confirmation process was dragged out longer than it should have been. Even TPP Senators were literally begging the confirmation thread to be closed, one of whom is the Party's Chairman (who was aware of my decision and why it was made through PM). So, I don't think it's really fair to blame the TPP, nor the administration because Lumine nominated me almost immediately after I re-registered. The blame for the vacancy goes to whatever caused the delayed confirmation.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

But remember, Griffin's "retiring" from Atlasia

I've always said that I'm retiring from party politics. If you consider this "party politics", then you're sorely mistaken. I'm merely in the same boat as many other people who remained active but no longer had to maintain any elected responsibilities (I'm coining this condition "Napoleon Retirement Syndrome"), in part because I acknowledge that I do not have the time or dedication to give to any elected office right now, and therefore won't seek one. Speaking of retirement, when is your next unscheduled deregistration?

In short I think what we're all saying here is that we'd appreciate constructive criticism as opposed to... concern trolling, the latter of which this rather appears to be.

Oooh, oooh! Let me try:

Do the fycking job you decided to run for in the first place, or get the fyck out of the job. It's not my job to coddle you or tell you to do your job; if anything, it's the people who elected you's responsibility and your own.

With all due respect Adam please don't be such a prick

I spent literally four days straight preparing my girlfriend's grandmother's house for thanksgiving, then there was thanksgiving and black friday, then I was able to spend time with my brother for the first time in a year. It's a holiday- I don't see what I did wrong, especially considering we allow Supreme Court justices to go half a year without posting. I didn't realize it had been a whole week but come on dude who would pick Atlasia over family

Certainly you know better than to say what's in bold there; obviously comparing the two branches in such a way is a terrible and reckless comparison.

And in regards to both Simfan and BK, one must merely ask: how little are others who play the game's free time worth in ya'll's eyes? The assertion that neither of you literally could be bothered to jump in for a week because of holiday stuff and school is, well, a bit much. Practically everyone on here has one or both of those responsibilities right now as well; I suppose had they taken the same approach, the entire game would have just ground to a halt! But this is a recurring issue with both of you, so I frankly take all of this with a grain of salt.

Furthermore (BK), you made a total of 16 posts on the forum during the time in question, including some that would have taken more than just a minute or two to type out. Ditto for Simfan, who made a comparable number of posts during the same time, many in much more detail. I think the reality is that y'all just didn't consider this particular board of much interest.


But those who are guilty of massive and repetitive inactivity (and those who support them) can continue to spend many times more energy attacking me and my motivations as they do apologizing for what they did and addressing the situation if they so choose, and I'll just keep humming along and bringing these transgressions - you know, the ones that actually impact game play more than anything else - to the attention of voters.

For you there's no difference between party politics and involvement in Atlasia, that's always been pretty obvious.  As for my deregistrations, I'm pretty sure you intended that as an attack of some sort, but I'm not really sure what your point is.  One de-registration was due to the fact that I was suffering from depression and didn't have time for Atlasia anymore during that period.  The other two times, I had higher priorities than Atlasia and had to focus on those (yes Griffin, believe it or not every player's life revolves around this game).  I don't see anything wrong with that, but whatever.  Btw, remind me again what your attack had to do with anything...oh right...nothing.  Anyway, you need to find a non-Atlasia hobby.  You might want to go outside or something, you get way too riled up about every little detail of this game.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The personal attacks on Griffin are uncalled for - and, in any case, I'm confident that he leads a richer and more active life outside of the forum than most of us do. The crux of the problem is not that he is "obsessed", but rather that he is talking out of his ass.

While I didn't mean it as a personal attack, I was annoyed with Griffin when I posted that and looking back, my wording may've been a bit harsher than I intended.  What I mean is that in general Griffin's been seeming to get very riled up about almost every remotely contentious issue relating even tangentially to any member or aspect of Labor.  The constant stream of megaposts (even when much shorter and/or less vitriolic posts would've sufficed) suggests to me (and obviously I'm not Griffin, so who knows, maybe I'm way off with this) that he is getting pretty personally/emotionally invested in even the various events in this game.  When that happens, it can often be quite relaxing and useful to temporarily deregister or even just significantly reduce one's involvement in the game for a month or two.  There's no shame in it, I did it when I deregistered shortly after my arguments with Nix and Napoleon that day made me realize how frustrated I was with the game and that I was starting to take it personally (a sure sign it's time to take a break, IMO).  Ultimately, Griffin knows better than me whether he's at a point where he'd benefit from taking a break from Atlasia for a month or two, I'm just giving my two cents based on what I observed.  I was admittedly kinda dickish in terms of how I said it in my previous post and I apologize for that, but I stand by what I said even though I probably should've said it differently.  That said, this hardly excuses the smears in Griffin's post, but that's a discussion for another day.

[Adam Griffin]

These deeply disturbing facts simply speak for themselves: