Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 21, 2017, 12:41:21 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Be sure to enable your "Ultimate Profile" for even more goodies on your profile page!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Political Debate (Moderators: Beet, Apocrypha)
| | |-+  "The Left Can Win"
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: "The Left Can Win"  (Read 3650 times)
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2629
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW
« on: December 17, 2014, 09:19:01 am »
Ignore

That's the title of a transcription (it's not an "essay", as Ms Naomi Klein wrote in her FB) in the Jacobin site. Podemos secretary general Pablo Iglesias offers his thoughts on how the left can win or, in other words, on "radical politics and how to build mass movements".

Quote
I know very well that the key to understanding the history of the past five hundred years is the emergence of specific social categories, called “classes.” And I am going to tell you an anecdote. When the 15-M movement first started, at the Puerta del Sol, some students from my department, the department of political science, very political students — they had read Marx, they had read Lenin — they participated for the first time in their lives with normal people.

They despaired: “They don’t understand anything! We tell them, you are a worker, even if you don’t know it!” People would look at them as if they were from another planet. And the students went home very depressed, saying, “They don’t understand anything.” (read more through the link...)

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/pablo-iglesias-podemos-left-speech/

I think this excerpt of a meeting in Valladolid (Spain) by the new Messiah of the European left may give some clues on the Podemos' "transversality", its discourse and strategy to take power: accessible speech, "people's empowerment", "the highly placed vs the common people", etc.

"Bread and Peace".

Off topic. I find amusing the love of Robespierre in certain circles in the radical left. If it was my online magazine, it'd be called Margaret in the Guillotine. Mozzer must be as controversial in pop music as Maximilien in historical discussion Grin
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 09:25:16 am by Velasco »Logged
swl
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 528
France


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 11:48:19 am »
Ignore

I have to agree with him. Sometimes political militants are stuck in their own theoretical world. If you say to someone who doesn't know about class theory that he is a worker, he is going to answer "yes and? I work, you work, everyone works, so what?."
The left sometimes fail to talk to the emotions of the people they want to convince, while the right and the far-right are good at it. For example, humans tend to be afraid of unknown and unusual things, and the far-right connects with that.

I don't know. Let's take a few examples. You saw your parents work hard all your life and do their best for you, and now that they are retired they cannot afford medicines or care because some guys in Brussels decided so? Do you think it's fair?
When you were a kid, how did you imagine yourself at 30? You probably saw yourself married, with children and living a happy life... And now you are 30, unemployed and living with your parents because someone in Germany decided that you had to pay the price for something you have not done. And worse, they give you life lessons and call you lazy.
And as a parent, how do you feel? All parents want to work hard to give their children a better life than theirs. You did your best, but you see your children struggling, you already know that it's not going to happen, and all that because some corrupt politicians associated with corrupt bankers to scr*w you? Do you want these people to stay in place, to keep their lavish lifestyle like nothing happened? Why can't the left talk like that?
Logged
Çråbçæk
CrabCake
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13155
Kiribati


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 12:59:34 pm »
Ignore

I've quoted this Orwell it before, but I think it still rings clear even now.

Quote
And what are the essentials of Socialism? What is the mark of a real Socialist? I suggest that the real Socialist is one who wishes—not merely conceives it as desirable, but actively wishes—to see tyranny overthrown. But I fancy that the majority of orthodox Marxists would not accept that definition, or would only accept it very grudgingly. Sometimes, when I listen to these people talking, and still more when I read their books, I get the impression that, to them, the whole Socialist movement is no more than a kind of exciting heresy-hunt—a leaping to and fro of frenzied witch-doctors to the beat of tom-toms and the tune of ‘Fee fi, fo, fum, I smell the blood of a right-wing deviationist!’ It is because of this kind of thing that it is so much easier to feel yourself a Socialist when you are among working-class people. The working-class Socialist, like the working-class Catholic, is weak on doctrine and can hardly open his mouth without uttering a heresy, but he has the heart of the matter in him. He does grasp the central fact that Socialism means the overthrow of tyranny, and the ‘Marseillaise’, if it were translated for his benefit, would appeal to him more deeply than any learned treatise on dialectical materialism. At this moment it is waste of time to insist that acceptance of Socialism means acceptance of the philosophic side of Marxism, plus adulation of Russia. The Socialist movement has not time to be a league of dialectical materialists; it has got to be a league of the oppressed against the oppressors. You have got to attract the man who means business, and you have got to drive away the mealy-mouthed Liberal who wants foreign Fascism destroyed in order that he may go on drawing his dividends peacefully—the type of hum-bug who passes resolutions ‘against Fascism and Communism’, i.e. against rats and rat-poison. Socialism means the overthrow of tyranny, at home as well as abroad. So long as you keep that fact well to the front, you will never be in much doubt as to who are your real supporters.
Logged

Personally, I think he should only get one testicle removed (moderate hero)
Such a solution would certainly be completely unacceptable for me. However, for the sake of moderate herosim, I might very well be willing to keep my scrotum. Smiley Indeed, does that sound fair? Smiley
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2629
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 02:45:45 pm »
Ignore

The left sometimes fail to talk to the emotions of the people they want to convince, while the right and the far-right are good at it. For example, humans tend to be afraid of unknown and unusual things, and the far-right connects with that.

True. Far-right and right-wing populist parties appeal to people's emotions better than the left (both "radical" and "moderate") and they connect with the fears of the common people. However, that "fear of the unknown" is clearly instrumented into a "fear of the otherness". The usual suspects are immigrants, as you know well. There's a ghost flying over Europe called xenophobia, with a singular variant named islamophobia.

Just to clarify things -not because of your post, but because some people and media like to establish comparisons with the FN or the 5 Stelle- , there's a radical difference between far-right populism and the new Spanish "movement party" called Podemos on the subject of "otherness". Also, I think that it's possible to deduce that there's an ideological background and motivation behind that speech. That's a huge difference with 'protest' parties like that of Beppe Grillo. Once that's been established, it's fair to criticise platform, discourse and strategy (for good and for bad).
Logged
politicus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10224
Denmark


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2014, 04:01:35 pm »
Ignore

The left sometimes fail to talk to the emotions of the people they want to convince, while the right and the far-right are good at it. For example, humans tend to be afraid of unknown and unusual things, and the far-right connects with that.

True. Far-right and right-wing populist parties appeal to people's emotions better than the left (both "radical" and "moderate") and they connect with the fears of the common people. However, that "fear of the unknown" is clearly instrumented into a "fear of the otherness". The usual suspects are immigrants, as you know well. There's a ghost flying over Europe called xenophobia, with a singular variant named islamophobia.

Just to clarify things -not because of your post, but because some people and media like to establish comparisons with the FN or the 5 Stelle- , there's a radical difference between far-right populism and the new Spanish "movement party" called Podemos on the subject of "otherness". Also, I think that it's possible to deduce that there's an ideological background and motivation behind that speech. That's a huge difference with 'protest' parties like that of Beppe Grillo. Once that's been established, it's fair to criticise platform, discourse and strategy (for good and for bad).

Viewing Islamophobia solely as a variation of xenophobia is an analytical error - and a costly one for the European left.
Logged

Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2629
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2014, 05:56:54 pm »
Ignore

Aside a specific type of xenophobia, what do you think islamophobia is?

According to a British organisation, islamophobia is characterised by:

1) Islam seen as a single monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to new realities.

2) Islam seen as separate and other – (a) not having any aims or values in common with
other cultures (b) not affected by them (c) not influencing them.

3) Islam seen as inferior to the West – barbaric, irrational, primitive, sexist.

4) Islam seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, engaged in 'a clash
of civilisations'.

5) Islam seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.

5) Criticisms made by Islam of ‘the West’ rejected out of hand.

6) Hostility towards Islam used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.

7) Anti-Muslim hostility accepted as natural and 'normal'

http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/publications/pdfs/islamophobia.pdf

I would not like to deviate the discussion, but feel free to start another topic on this particular subject. In what concerns the left and Islam...  In my opinion, it'd be an analytical error de-contextualise legitimate criticism and condemnation of certain extremist manifestations of Islam (ISIS, burka, etc) in order to disqualify anything related with Islamic peoples and societies.

I'd agree on that certain naivety and well-intentioned 'good vibe' attitudes towards Islam and immigration may have been costly for the left. However, my impression is that the huge strategical error on the part of political advisers is trying to compete with the far-right on the grounds of appealing to the fear of the other. People use to prefer the original to the copy (Le Pen better than Sarko or Valls).

I think that focusing on this perceived danger distracts the attention from the real problems. In what regards the South of Europe and Spain in particular, the diagnosis made by the Podemos' strategists has proved a success as it's largely identical to that of the Spanish society. The last part of the swl's post mentions some of these concerns. This has been achieved without resorting to foreign scapegoats. Another question, the tougher one, is the proposals and the practical measures to address problems and challenges.  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 06:07:43 pm by Velasco »Logged
ingemann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2808


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2014, 06:22:17 pm »
Ignore

I have to agree with him. Sometimes political militants are stuck in their own theoretical world. If you say to someone who doesn't know about class theory that he is a worker, he is going to answer "yes and? I work, you work, everyone works, so what?."
The left sometimes fail to talk to the emotions of the people they want to convince, while the right and the far-right are good at it. For example, humans tend to be afraid of unknown and unusual things, and the far-right connects with that.

I blame vanguardism, the trouble are that Socialism and other left wing movement became dominated by people, who intellualised it all and transformed the slogans into buzz words. Socialism have always had a good deal of populism and common sense approach in it, and that was a good thing. Sadly the socialist parties have become filled with people who think both are fascist.
Logged
ingemann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2808


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2014, 06:27:58 pm »
Ignore

Aside a specific type of xenophobia, what do you think islamophobia is?

According to a British organisation, islamophobia is characterised by:

1) Islam seen as a single monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to new realities.

2) Islam seen as separate and other – (a) not having any aims or values in common with
other cultures (b) not affected by them (c) not influencing them.

3) Islam seen as inferior to the West – barbaric, irrational, primitive, sexist.

4) Islam seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, engaged in 'a clash
of civilisations'.

5) Islam seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.

5) Criticisms made by Islam of ‘the West’ rejected out of hand.

6) Hostility towards Islam used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.

7) Anti-Muslim hostility accepted as natural and 'normal'

http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/publications/pdfs/islamophobia.pdf

I would not like to deviate the discussion, but feel free to start another topic on this particular subject. In what concerns the left and Islam...  In my opinion, it'd be an analytical error de-contextualise legitimate criticism and condemnation of certain extremist manifestations of Islam (ISIS, burka, etc) in order to disqualify anything related with Islamic peoples and societies.

I'd agree on that certain naivety and well-intentioned 'good vibe' attitudes towards Islam and immigration may have been costly for the left. However, my impression is that the huge strategical error on the part of political advisers is trying to compete with the far-right on the grounds of appealing to the fear of the other. People use to prefer the original to the copy (Le Pen better than Sarko or Valls).

I think that focusing on this perceived danger distracts the attention from the real problems. In what regards the South of Europe and Spain in particular, the diagnosis made by the Podemos' strategists has proved a success as it's largely identical to that of the Spanish society. The last part of the swl's post mentions some of these concerns. This has been achieved without resorting to foreign scapegoats. Another question, the tougher one, is the proposals and the practical measures to address problems and challenges.  

I think you have just shown why the Left will keep losing elections.

Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 61563
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2014, 07:03:38 pm »
Ignore

Why would I want to read something from Jacobin?
Logged



Illuminati Blood Drinker
phwezer
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1520
United States


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 07:09:43 pm »
Ignore

Why would I want to read something from Jacobin?
Because it's not. It's a transcript of another guy's speech.
Logged

Quote from: My Immortal
"WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING YOU MOTHERFUKERS!"

it was.................Dumbledore!
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2629
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2014, 07:27:38 pm »
Ignore

Why would I want to read something from Jacobin?

I don't know because, aside that transcription, I haven't had the pleasure of reading Jacobin. I only know what people wants: Bread and Peace.

I think you have just shown why the Left will keep losing elections.

Do you have the correct diagnosis and the recipe to save the European Left from disaster? It'd be a good thing to know both. Out of irony, it'd be good a comeback of socialdemocracy... or a reinvention which doesn't imply losing its former spirit into some kind of third-way socio-liberalism or, even worse, a carbon-copy of right-wing xenophobic populism. I wish to see tyranny overthrown one day, if possible.
Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 36725
United States


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2014, 07:29:31 pm »
Ignore

Why would I want to read something from Jacobin?

are you allowed to read anything that isn't peer-reviewed/written by a PhD?  do you allow yourself the pleasure of a 21st Century de Kock, for example?
Logged

I wanna contribute to the chaos
I don't wanna watch and then complain,
'cause I am through finding blame
that is the decision that I have made
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 61563
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2014, 07:45:06 pm »
Ignore

are you allowed to read anything that isn't peer-reviewed/written by a PhD?

As a general rule that sort of thing is at least as frustrating as Jacobin. Mostly I read fiction these days, it tends to contain more truth.
Logged



TheDeadFlagBlues
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4746
Mexico


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2014, 07:46:53 pm »
Ignore

Clearly, the European left needs to re-invent itself. I'm not sure if the approach offered by parties like Podemos and SYRIZA is the correct one but it's more inspiring and certainly more "social democratic" in spirit than the tepid promises offered by the traditional parties of the center-left. The left cannot maintain itself as a viable force in times of social upheaval if it is not viewed as dynamic and forward-thinking force.
Logged



"In this historic hour, we solemnly pledge ourselves to the principles of humanity and justice, of freedom and socialism. No Executive Order gives you the power to destroy ideas that are eternal and indestructible."
-Otto Wels Enabling Act speech, paraphrased
TheDeadFlagBlues
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4746
Mexico


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014, 07:48:04 pm »
Ignore

are you allowed to read anything that isn't peer-reviewed/written by a PhD?

As a general rule that sort of thing is at least as frustrating as Jacobin. Mostly I read fiction these days, it tends to contain more truth.

Truth is stranger than fiction in 2014.
Logged



"In this historic hour, we solemnly pledge ourselves to the principles of humanity and justice, of freedom and socialism. No Executive Order gives you the power to destroy ideas that are eternal and indestructible."
-Otto Wels Enabling Act speech, paraphrased
Vice President PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27140
United States


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2014, 10:08:28 pm »
Ignore

I think you have just shown why the Left will keep losing elections.

Do you have the correct diagnosis and the recipe to save the European Left from disaster? It'd be a good thing to know both. Out of irony, it'd be good a comeback of socialdemocracy... or a reinvention which doesn't imply losing its former spirit into some kind of third-way socio-liberalism or, even worse, a carbon-copy of right-wing xenophobic populism. I wish to see tyranny overthrown one day, if possible.

     Few people care about being "correct". Offering that sort of dry, bloodless argument simply does not persuade your average voter, and the use of academic jargon only makes it less compelling. Before people can believe in your position, they have to believe that you believe in it.
Logged

Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2629
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2014, 04:02:43 am »
Ignore

You don't get it. Being "correct" on the diagnosis concerns those who design the strategy. Being clear and convincing to common people concerns those who play on a stand. In other words: academic jargon is for academicians, "Bread and Peace" is for speakers. Is it difficult to understand?
Logged
ingemann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2808


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2014, 04:44:19 pm »
Ignore


I think you have just shown why the Left will keep losing elections.

Do you have the correct diagnosis and the recipe to save the European Left from disaster?


There is no recipe for victory, there is only hard work, luck and political fingerspitzengefühl, but that you showed in your post is a recipe, a recipe for defeat.

The recipe you make is by lumping every "islamophobe" together. There's real islamophobes out there and the left will never be able to get them to vote for them. But here's the thing a lot of the people you call islamophobes have nothing against Islam as such, for them it's much more simple, they live together with Muslims, and they don't like the values, behaviour and general problems, they see from them (or at least from some of them), and they tired of well off intellectuals calling them racist, when they bring it up.

Let's give a example, in Malmö some time ago, a African man and his child was attacked, the usual suspect brought it up, and began using it as example of the racism in Swedish society and when ... there was just silence.
I found that weird, so I began to read up on it, when I found out it was a family which had attacked him, which made some bells ring. So I did some more research, and funny enough it happened near Rosengård, a area known for its ...diverse population, soon I found out it was a Kurdish family with a ugly record.
Here's the thing people are not stupid, they find these things out, and when they do, they are disgusted by the hypocrisy and they lose trust in the ypocritical elite.

That's the left's true problem, we have lost the trust of a significant segments of the working class, because we have let this kind of hypocrisy run loose without reacting. They don't trust us any more, some of thm still vote for the left, but they doesn't trust their own politicians, when they do things which hurt, but they say are necessary. We have simply made it easy for the populist right to pick these voters up.


Quote
It'd be a good thing to know both. Out of irony, it'd be good a comeback of socialdemocracy... or a reinvention which doesn't imply losing its former spirit into some kind of third-way socio-liberalism or, even worse, a carbon-copy of right-wing xenophobic populism. I wish to see tyranny overthrown one day, if possible.

Right now we can't do much, we have lost the trust of much of the working class, the only way we can get them back, is by showing the populist right for what it is, and that ironic demand that we stop treating them as untouchables, we need to force them to take responsability for the state, make compromises with them in other issues like pensions, taxes and all those things, where we will either force them to the left or make them show their true face.

Also we need to stop the hypocrisy. Sometimes a racist is just a racist, that's not something we should be afraid to say, but other times the people we call racists are people who bring important issues, and we need to listen to those.

If we do those two thing, maybe the left can win again, but at the very least it may force the populist right to moderate themselves and move to the left.
Logged
Vice President PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27140
United States


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2014, 01:51:16 am »
Ignore

You don't get it. Being "correct" on the diagnosis concerns those who design the strategy. Being clear and convincing to common people concerns those who play on a stand. In other words: academic jargon is for academicians, "Bread and Peace" is for speakers. Is it difficult to understand?

     I get what you are referring to there, but I think there is a more fundamental issue to consider that extends far beyond the left-wing; what value do academics have in the process?
Logged

Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2629
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2014, 07:35:21 am »
Ignore

There is no recipe for victory, there is only hard work, luck and political fingerspitzengefühl, but that you showed in your post is a recipe, a recipe for defeat.

Hard work, sure. A bit of luck doesn't harm. Sure instinct (fingerspitzengefühl) is rare amongst European politicians, especially those aligned in the socialdemocracy. It's a gift for a party having a solid leadership, is it enough? Can the decadent European environment provide political animals like Lula or Pepe Mújica? Also, what is what I showed in my post? I only said that in my opinion is a big mistake copying the far-right agenda.

Quote
The recipe you make is by lumping every "islamophobe" together. There's real islamophobes out there and the left will never be able to get them to vote for them. But here's the thing a lot of the people you call islamophobes have nothing against Islam as such, for them it's much more simple, they live together with Muslims, and they don't like the values, behaviour and general problems, they see from them (or at least from some of them), and they tired of well off intellectuals calling them racist, when they bring it up.

First of all, I don't make recipes and don't have remedies. Second, why do you say I lump islamophobes together? I copied the commonly accepted definition of islamophobia, a concept coined in 1991 by a Britsh organisation called Runnymede Trust. That characterisation is recognized by the EU Observatory on Racism and Xenophobia. Do you think it's offesive? Why?

Let us leave that I didn't call "islamophobe" to anyone, just posted what is "islamophobia". When you say, "they don't like the values, behaviour and problems", what are you referring to? Aren't you lumping all Muslims together as problematic and misconducted people? What do you mean with "values"? What are "Islamic values"? Here you have a part of the problem, Islam seen as "monolithic", "barbaric", "primitive", "sexist", etcetera. That is exactly how populist xenophobes portray those communities. The reality of "Islam" is actually too complex and varied to talk of "Islamic values" in a general sense. On the other hand, many immigrants come from socially conservative countries. It's not easy to deal with that, but it should be clear that "assimilation" to western "civilised" values is only possible through a gradual process. Our authorities and decision-makers should have a better knowledge of the cultural backgrounds of our immigrant communities.  

Instead of echoing the claims of populist xenophobes, dealing with conflicts between immigrant and local communities requires a lot of hard work in education, social services and many other areas. The problem is complex and I don't have a magic solution, but common sense tells me that it's needed a lot of pedagogy to comprehend other realities and foster tolerance, as well investment in deprived areas where immigrants and poor locals use to live, mediation in conflicts... It's important to note that problems have a clear economic background; the far-right likes to say they are the result a cultural clash. I think Arab multimillionaires never cause problems, do they? The easy way is, of course, the one exploited by xenophobes. They don't provide solutions.

Quote
et's give a example, in Malmö some time ago, a African man and his child was attacked, the usual suspect brought it up, and began using it as example of the racism in Swedish society and when ... there was just silence...

This example you provide is a clear sample of counterproductive overreaction, especially if it wasn't rectified. I think such attitudes from well intentioned progressives can be costly, indeed.

Quote
That's the left's true problem, we have lost the trust of a significant segments of the working class, because we have let this kind of hypocrisy run loose without reacting. They don't trust us any more, some of thm still vote for the left, but they doesn't trust their own politicians, when they do things which hurt, but they say are necessary. We have simply made it easy for the populist right to pick these voters up.

I think there's something more like that. What you call "hypocrisy" -my impression is that it's more an issue of not dealing with problems- may be a reason for distrust. However, I'm not sure if it's really the most important factor in play. In what regards socialdemocracy, which has been traditionally the most significant portion of the "European Left", the core of the problem is the loss of identity. It's hard to keep the trust of your potential voters when your policies are indistinguishable from those of the mainstream right. I'm talking of economy, obviously. I think the problems of the "radical" left are different, maybe more related with chronic infighting and disconnection from reality: those students complaining because "workers" don't understand them.

Quote
Right now we can't do much, we have lost the trust of much of the working class, the only way we can get them back, is by showing the populist right for what it is, and that ironic demand that we stop treating them as untouchables, we need to force them to take responsability for the state, make compromises with them in other issues like pensions, taxes and all those things, where we will either force them to the left or make them show their true face.

Also we need to stop the hypocrisy. Sometimes a racist is just a racist, that's not something we should be afraid to say, but other times the people we call racists are people who bring important issues, and we need to listen to those.

If we do those two thing, maybe the left can win again, but at the very least it may force the populist right to moderate themselves and move to the left


As for the last paragraph of your post, I'm not sure of how to deal with far-right xenophobes and right-wing populists. Luckily, they aren't strong in my country. For sure, the left must fight them by showing for what they are. I think that you may be right on that treating them as untouchables -the cordon sanitaire- is not going to work anymore. The challenge is how to fight them without losing the core values of the left -such as social justice, brotherhood or tolerance- and counter demagoguery with argumentation accesible to common people.  I doubt that if they touch power, they are going to "moderate" themselves or moving to the left. Maybe the first, to some extent, but not the latter.

  
Logged
swl
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 528
France


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2014, 10:15:44 am »
Ignore

Clearly, the European left needs to re-invent itself. I'm not sure if the approach offered by parties like Podemos and SYRIZA is the correct one but it's more inspiring and certainly more "social democratic" in spirit than the tepid promises offered by the traditional parties of the center-left.
I think these parties are doing a good job by pushing new ideas like the universal basic income. It's not for tomorrow and they would probably not be able to implement it if they came to power in one or two years, but other revolutionary ideas like tax income, or paid annual leave were also very polarizing and took a long time to be accepted, and that's a kind of 'bright future' that makes people enthusiastic.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 10:17:31 am by swl »Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 61563
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2014, 01:25:32 pm »
Ignore

Slowly gearing into possibly considering maybe actually looking at this. And with that in mind I would like to point out one very important (very obvious thing) already: 'The Left' is not the same thing everywhere and pretending otherwise leads to confused arguments, woolly thinking and ultimately to the creation of a new imaginary political reality that has little resemblance to the actual one. Is the experience of Podemos and SYRIZA particularly relevant to Britain or Germany? Probably not. Is the PSOE the same sort of political party as the SAP? Not really. Things become even more complicated attention turns from Europe and the rest of the old First World. Sometimes the internationalism that good socialists are supposed to pay at least lip service towards blinds them (us) to what the world is actually like...
Logged



Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 61563
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2014, 01:27:01 pm »
Ignore

"Bread and Peace".

That's not even an original slogan.
Logged



Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2629
Western Sahara


View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2014, 03:27:20 pm »
Ignore

"Bread and Peace".

That's not even an original slogan.

I doubt that the guy pretended to be original in rescuing an old Leninist slogan from oblivion.

True, it's obvious that there are differences between the parties associated with 'The Left' in Europe. Does it mean that they are not facing problems that are common to them? Personally, I'm a bit of sceptical about the possibility of 'exporting' experiences to other places. However, do you think that the emergence of certain political forces in certain countries won't have repercussions in others?   
Logged
The Mikado
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16346


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2014, 05:16:44 pm »
Ignore

Bread and Peace, a slogan made for a situation where people were literally starving en masse and watching a whole generation of their sons consumed by a war with no obvious benefit to them, is certainly tailor-made for modern countries where literal starvation is next to unheard of and (as per most European countries not named Ukraine) aren't involved in wars of any kind at the moment.
Logged



The Handsome Monkey King Son Wukong weighs in on politics.
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines