We have a Pope

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm not a Catholic (far from it) but... this seems like a bad choice to me. Not so much because of his views, but his general attitude... he comes off (to me anyway) as a sort of religious equivilent of a cold calculating careerist machine politician, rather than the grandfatherly figure of the previous incumbent.
He doesn't seem to smile much, if at all.

[MasterJedi]

As I said earlier I wouldn't have chosen him either but I'll stick with him.

Plus you only saw him for a couple of minutes, you can't judge someone in that short time. And he hasn't done anything yet!

[opebo]

but will stand with him and work for a better tomorrow.

In all seriousness the best way to 'work for a better tomorrow' would be to close that monstrosity down.

[MasterJedi]

but will stand with him and work for a better tomorrow.

In all seriousness the best way to 'work for a better tomorrow' would be to close that monstrosity down.

The best thing for the world would be to get rid of radicals like you on BOTH sides of the political spectrum. Little accidents would be just fine and noone would notice.

[opebo]

but will stand with him and work for a better tomorrow.

In all seriousness the best way to 'work for a better tomorrow' would be to close that monstrosity down.

The best thing for the world would be to get rid of radicals like you on BOTH sides of the political spectrum. Little accidents would be just fine and noone would notice.

Sounds like exactly the Nazi attitude.  Or that of established religion.

[Joe Republic]

I don't think the Iraq War was wrong, because from my analysis, it meets the criteria of the just war theory.

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

As far economic injustice, I donate my money, time, and talents to volunteer work and that's about all you can do other than pay taxes.

I would go as far as to say that Catholic teaching on 'economic justice' would support the idea of economic socialism over capitalism, but that would be a very weighty philosophical argument that I'm not really in the mood for.

On the death penalty, I feel it should only be used on the worst and still dangerous criminals and that it needs major reform to make sure we execute only guilty people. I've discussed this with my priest and while he disagreed with me, he acknowledged that he knew where I was coming from on this issue.

I appreciate your dissent with the Catholic church on this, because everybody should be free to disagree with aspects of the doctrine if they disagree with it.

By the same logic other Catholics should be free to disagree with different portions of their church's teachings without fear of being called 'untrue Catholics'.  Nobody should really have the right to say that IMO.

[Brandon H]

I don't think the Iraq War was wrong, because from my analysis, it meets the criteria of the just war theory.

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

There is such a thing as a just war, but if the Pope said try peace before war, then I would have done just that. However, I think we should have waited until we finished in Afghanistan, making whether or not to go to war with Iraq a moot point.

As far economic injustice, I donate my money, time, and talents to volunteer work and that's about all you can do other than pay taxes.

I would go as far as to say that Catholic teaching on 'economic justice' would support the idea of economic socialism over capitalism, but that would be a very weighty philosophical argument that I'm not really in the mood for.

I think each person should do what they can to help those in need, but it is not the responsibility of the government to force people to do that. A Church / non-profit, a business, and the government should not all be run in the same manner.

On the death penalty, I feel it should only be used on the worst and still dangerous criminals and that it needs major reform to make sure we execute only guilty people. I've discussed this with my priest and while he disagreed with me, he acknowledged that he knew where I was coming from on this issue.

I appreciate your dissent with the Catholic church on this, because everybody should be free to disagree with aspects of the doctrine if they disagree with it.

By the same logic other Catholics should be free to disagree with different portions of their church's teachings without fear of being called 'untrue Catholics'.  Nobody should really have the right to say that IMO.

This is a tough one for me. The death penalty is used too often. I think there are cases such as the Kidnap, Rape, and Murder cases of people younger than 10 (3 in the last month) that deserve the death penalty. However, the church says we should oppose the death penalty. Although opposition to the death penalty is not emphasised as much as opposition to abortion, it is the same prinicipal. I do worry about being an 'untrue Catholic'. A true or untrue Catholic has been referred to as in union with the Holy See meaning Catholics must respect the authority of the Pope.

Since the legalization of abortion and the death penalty, it has generally been conservatives and liberals both favoring one and opposing the other, with there usually not being a candidate opposed to both. While we should not pick and choose which parts of Catholic doctrine we agree and disagree with, our choices are limited by what is on the ballot so either we choose one or we don't vote.

[Kodratos]

Worst choice ever.  I was standing in a hallway watching TV when they announced.  There were four priests there.  Three were visably obset and I thought the one was going to die.  Unless Bendict XVI is a different man from Joseph Ratzinger this was the wrong way to go.

I'm surprised at you Soulty. Why would you oppose him? Personally I was pulling for Shoenborn or Arinze, but hopefully Ratzinger can undo some of the damage that John Paul II refused to.

[Jake]

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

I could care less what was on Bush's mind. The fact was that it meets the criteria under the Just War theory.  The Holy Father was wrong on this one.

I would go as far as to say that Catholic teaching on 'economic justice' would support the idea of economic socialism over capitalism, but that would be a very weighty philosophical argument that I'm not really in the mood for.

They may support the kind of socialism we have in place now, but obviously, the church is not calling for total redistribution of wealth. The Bible teaches us to sacrifice to others through our own choices. Charity, volunteer work, etc, not government redistribution.

[Joe Republic]

I don't think the Iraq War was wrong, because from my analysis, it meets the criteria of the just war theory.

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

There is such a thing as a just war, but if the Pope said try peace before war, then I would have done just that. However, I think we should have waited until we finished in Afghanistan, making whether or not to go to war with Iraq a moot point.

As far economic injustice, I donate my money, time, and talents to volunteer work and that's about all you can do other than pay taxes.

I would go as far as to say that Catholic teaching on 'economic justice' would support the idea of economic socialism over capitalism, but that would be a very weighty philosophical argument that I'm not really in the mood for.

I think each person should do what they can to help those in need, but it is not the responsibility of the government to force people to do that. A Church / non-profit, a business, and the government should not all be run in the same manner.

On the death penalty, I feel it should only be used on the worst and still dangerous criminals and that it needs major reform to make sure we execute only guilty people. I've discussed this with my priest and while he disagreed with me, he acknowledged that he knew where I was coming from on this issue.

I appreciate your dissent with the Catholic church on this, because everybody should be free to disagree with aspects of the doctrine if they disagree with it.

By the same logic other Catholics should be free to disagree with different portions of their church's teachings without fear of being called 'untrue Catholics'.  Nobody should really have the right to say that IMO.

This is a tough one for me. The death penalty is used too often. I think there are cases such as the Kidnap, Rape, and Murder cases of people younger than 10 (3 in the last month) that deserve the death penalty. However, the church says we should oppose the death penalty. Although opposition to the death penalty is not emphasised as much as opposition to abortion, it is the same prinicipal. I do worry about being an 'untrue Catholic'. A true or untrue Catholic has been referred to as in union with the Holy See meaning Catholics must respect the authority of the Pope.

Since the legalization of abortion and the death penalty, it has generally been conservatives and liberals both favoring one and opposing the other, with there usually not being a candidate opposed to both. While we should not pick and choose which parts of Catholic doctrine we agree and disagree with, our choices are limited by what is on the ballot so either we choose one or we don't vote.

An excellent post, especially the last paragraph.

[Joe Republic]

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

I could care less what was on Bush's mind. The fact was that it meets the criteria under the Just War theory.  The Holy Father was wrong on this one.

I don't mean to sound facetious, but I thought the Holy Father was never wrong?  Either you support his position or you disagree with Catholic teaching - that's my understanding.

[Storebought]

I wonder if the American catholic church will whither away in the manner of the European catholic churches of the late 1800s?

[12th Doctor]

I wonder if the American catholic church will whither away in the manner of the European catholic churches of the late 1800s?

Many say that the reason that they picked him was to try to revive the Church in Western Europe.

[Emsworth]

I wonder if the American catholic church will whither away in the manner of the European catholic churches of the late 1800s?

Pat Buchanan has written an interesting article on the topic: http://www.theamericancause.org/patanindexofcatholicismsdecline.htm.

[The Duke]

Joe Republic,

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.  As a non-Catholic, I too misunderstood this doctrine.  Apparently, the Pope's words are rarely considered infallible and his infallible statements are only issued on rare occaisions.

The last Pope had effectively abandoned Just War Theory (flawed as it may be) and become a pacifist for all practical purposes, though he pretended that Just War Theory supported his opposition to both the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars.

I don't mean to bash JPII in death too much, but here's a pretty damning story Christopher Hithcens relays in Slate:

"Finally, if the pope is to have so much credit for the liberation of Eastern Europe, he ought to accept his responsibility for the enslavement of the Middle East. He not only opposed the removal of Saddam Hussein in 2003, but the use of force to get him out of Kuwait in 1991. I have never read any deployment of Augustinian argument, in the latter case, that would not qualify it as a just war. Moreover, the pope made a visit to Damascus not long ago, and sat quietly outside the Grand Mosque while the NixonNow regime greeted him as one who understood that Muslims and Catholics had a common enemy—in the Jews who had killed Christ. (That he may already have been senescent at this point is not an answer: It is a problem, though, for those who believe that he was Christ's vicar on earth.)"

[Emsworth]

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.

My limited understanding is that a papal statement is only infallible if it relates to issues of faith, if it is made publicly and officially, and if it does not contradict any previous teachings of the Church. IIRC, Pius XII was the only pope to formally invoke the doctrine.

[12th Doctor]

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.  As a non-Catholic, I too misunderstood this doctrine.  Apparently, the Pope's words are rarely considered infallible and his infallible statements are only issued on rare occaisions.

Yes, that is correct.  Thank you, John.  It is nice to hear that, with all the times I have said that, someone acctually listens and understands.

[Joe Republic]

Joe Republic,

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.  As a non-Catholic, I too misunderstood this doctrine.  Apparently, the Pope's words are rarely considered infallible and his infallible statements are only issued on rare occaisions.

The last Pope had effectively abandoned Just War Theory (flawed as it may be) and become a pacifist for all practical purposes, though he pretended that Just War Theory supported his opposition to both the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars.

This may be true, but if I chose to listen to Catholic doctrine on the subject of war, I would prefer to listen to the views of the Pope himself than the actual theory as outlined in the various teachings.  Reason being that after all, the Pope is supposed to have the highest understanding of the church's teachings and of God's will.

[Storebought]

I wonder if the American catholic church will whither away in the manner of the European catholic churches of the late 1800s?

Many say that the reason that they picked him was to try to revive the Church in Western Europe.

To an extent, I belive that. A Latin American or an African pope would have caused the end of the church even in Eastern Europe.

But the major spiritual crisis of western Europe is moral indifference.  I can't see how Benedict, or any other person, can fight that.  

[The Duke]

Joe Republic,

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.  As a non-Catholic, I too misunderstood this doctrine.  Apparently, the Pope's words are rarely considered infallible and his infallible statements are only issued on rare occaisions.

The last Pope had effectively abandoned Just War Theory (flawed as it may be) and become a pacifist for all practical purposes, though he pretended that Just War Theory supported his opposition to both the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars.

This may be true, but if I chose to listen to Catholic doctrine on the subject of war, I would prefer to listen to the views of the Pope himself than the actual theory as outlined in the various teachings.  Reason being that after all, the Pope is supposed to have the highest understanding of the church's teachings and of God's will.

But the Pope himself would have to admit his own infallibility, and since the Church has tought Just War Theory for about a thousand years now, a Papal statement that undercuts that principle can't be considered infallible since it contradicts previous Church teaching (Which IS infallible).  Since the war in Iraq is not a matter of faith first and foremost, it is not something the Pope is capable of being infallible on.  So no, it doesn't necessarily square with Catholic doctrine that the Pope must be right, ot at least more right, than anyone else on the war.

[J. J.]

Okay, fact check.

The new Pope was a strong supporter of Vatican II, but was influenced by the 1968 Paris Riots.  He felt that things we going too far.

As to Papal Infallibility, the Pope when speaking ex Cathedra ("From the Chair") is considered infallible on matters of faith and morals.  He could not, for example, claim that Columbus didn't sail the ocean blue in 1492, or that my initials were not J. J.

While the doctrine of Papal Infalibility had its origins in the Middle Ages, it was not formally established as doctrine until Vatican I in 1870.

At least before John Paul II, the formal use of Papal Infallibility occured only once; Pius XII declared that Mary was bodily assumed into Heaven, IIRC.

The Church is not truly "infallible," as John D. Ford uses the term.  Since the Middle Ages, Popes took an oath not to reverse the actions of their predecessors.  John Paul I refused to sign the oath, as did John Paul II.  A Pope may reverse the action of a past Pope.  It was the oath that "prevented" them from doing so.

In the late 800's Pope Formosus was condemned after his death; his corpse was dug up several times and repeatedly condemned and later exonerated.  The last trial exonerated him.

[The Duke]

Prediction:  Benedict XVI will take up the pacifist agenda of Benedict XV and will make Vatican opposition to the War on Terror a central element of his Papacy.  This will create a significan rift between the Church and many of its American adherents.  Most actual church going Catholics support the war, its the non-practicing ones who are mostly against it.  This, combined with continued indifference to the child sex scandal will leave the American church weaker than ever before.

Out on a limb, but the name makes me nervous.

[12th Doctor]

Benedict XV was also a moderate Pope who concentrated on healing the theoloical wounds of the Church.  Let's hope that he adopts that line as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_XV

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Hopefully, the church does split over this.  The true believers can stay in the church and those who don't follow Catholic teachings will leave like they should.

Sad but true.  Most of the liberal Catholics the news talked about with the Gallup poll don't go to Church anyway.  Certain issues are up for change but there are certain issues that you cannot change just because current societal norms calls for it.  If you want a church that still has some ritual with nothing behind it and that caves on every single issue- become an Episcapalian.

that's a very derogatory and condescending attitdue. I agree liberal Catholics should become Episcopalians (or Evangelical Lutherans, since we are fairly similar to the Catholic church service -wise as well), but you appear to think their church is inferior.

[Storebought]

Prediction:  Benedict XVI will take up the pacifist agenda of Benedict XV and will make Vatican opposition to the War on Terror a central element of his Papacy.  This will create a significan rift between the Church and many of its American adherents.  Most actual church going Catholics support the war, its the non-practicing ones who are mostly against it.  This, combined with continued indifference to the child sex scandal will leave the American church weaker than ever before.

You've just found the way Benedict plans to revive the European church (but I still hope you're wrong...)