New South Wales State Election, 2015

[Sol]

Heck, even an overwhelming majority of US Democratic office holders support SSM, and that's in a country where public opinion is much less friendly than Australia. The fact the the Labor Party promotes extreme bigots, to me, is incomprehensible for any left-wing party.

[EPG]

There are plenty of social conservatives in Ireland's Labour Party, in the Seanad more so than the Dáil, though it can be hard to tell individual positions from votes because strict party whips are imposed on all votes by all parties.

But I must say that the idea of universal social progressivism among English-speaking trade unions (if that category even makes sense), based on the evidence of one (hardly dispassionate) movie, is unsound. Furthermore, the idea that opposing gay marriage is politically equivalent to advocating the genetic inferority of blacks is also unsound.

There can be a strange tendency to see politics as basically a small set of easily-categorised international political tendencies, with extremely minor deviations in their national expressions, and no role for differences among electorates to influence party positions. This naivety should probably be discarded.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Is this your prediction?

Intellectually no, I guess, but I do genuinely half expect it to happen all the same...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

As to the... issue... here... well it isn't unique to Australia. The Bennite faction in the PLP here (the Socialist Campaign Group)* has always had some members with not terribly liberal stances on certain matters, even if they weren't (aren't) typical overall.

_{*Which, yes, is still around, even if it is a shadow of its former self.}

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Regarding posts upthread, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of Labor Unity here; excepting the usual careerist drones (found in all political factions of any significance world over, alas) they are genuine social democrats deeply rooted in Australian political tradition (Australia is one of only a handful of countries where trade unionism played a foundational role in its establishment), and not an amorphous centrist blob flying under a red(ish) flag of convenience.

[politicus]

Regarding posts upthread, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of Labor Unity here; excepting the usual careerist drones (found in all political factions of any significance world over, alas) they are genuine social democrats deeply rooted in Australian political tradition (Australia is one of only a handful of countries where trade unionism played a foundational role in its establishment), and not an amorphous centrist blob flying under a red(ish) flag of convenience.

What you describe is certainly historically true, but it seems that "amorphous centrist blob" would be a pretty accurate describtion for a lot of them these days.  Still, the trade union ties sets them apart from something like Canadian Grits, but having union links does not automatically anchor you in an SD tradition.

It will be interesting whether the Aussie posters agree with your evaluation.

[DL]

There are plenty of social conservatives in Ireland's Labour Party, in the Seanad more so than the Dáil, though it can be hard to tell individual positions from votes because strict party whips are imposed on all votes by all parties.

But I must say that the idea of universal social progressivism among English-speaking trade unions (if that category even makes sense), based on the evidence of one (hardly dispassionate) movie, is unsound. Furthermore, the idea that opposing gay marriage is politically equivalent to advocating the genetic inferority of blacks is also unsound.

There can be a strange tendency to see politics as basically a small set of easily-categorised international political tendencies, with extremely minor deviations in their national expressions, and no role for differences among electorates to influence party positions. This naivety should probably be discarded.

I would be the first to acknowledge that there are plenty of rank and file union members in Canada and elsewhere who have socially conservative views, but the leadership is another matter. I've been to my share of trade union offices in Canada and usually the moment you walk in the door you walk past a gauntlet of rainbow flags and pink triangles and that is especially true of the auto workers and steelworkers unions.

I see no difference between thinking blacks are genetically inferior to whites and thinking that gays and lesbians have no right to marry. The only reason anyone opposes equal marriage rights is because they are heterosexuals with their noses up in the air filled with feelings of smug superiority who like to look down their noses at gay couples and say to themselves "look how great I am. I can get married and those pathetic queers cannot. Aren't I great" opposition to SSM a is an expression of feeling that gay people are inferior human beings who must be discriminate against. It is 100% indefensible especially by anyone who claims to have a social conscience. Period.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

There are plenty of social conservatives in Ireland's Labour Party, in the Seanad more so than the Dáil, though it can be hard to tell individual positions from votes because strict party whips are imposed on all votes by all parties.

But I must say that the idea of universal social progressivism among English-speaking trade unions (if that category even makes sense), based on the evidence of one (hardly dispassionate) movie, is unsound. Furthermore, the idea that opposing gay marriage is politically equivalent to advocating the genetic inferority of blacks is also unsound.

There can be a strange tendency to see politics as basically a small set of easily-categorised international political tendencies, with extremely minor deviations in their national expressions, and no role for differences among electorates to influence party positions. This naivety should probably be discarded.

I would be the first to acknowledge that there are plenty of rank and file union members in Canada and elsewhere who have socially conservative views, but the leadership is another matter. I've been to my share of trade union offices in Canada and usually the moment you walk in the door you walk past a gauntlet of rainbow flags and pink triangles and that is especially true of the auto workers and steelworkers unions.

I see no difference between thinking blacks are genetically inferior to whites and thinking that gays and lesbians have no right to marry. The only reason anyone opposes equal marriage rights is because they are heterosexuals with their noses up in the air filled with feelings of smug superiority who like to look down their noses at gay couples and say to themselves "look how great I am. I can get married and those pathetic queers cannot. Aren't I great" opposition to SSM a is an expression of feeling that gay people are inferior human beings who must be discriminate against. It is 100% indefensible especially by anyone who claims to have a social conscience. Period.

It's possible that this is the unique product of the professionalization of union bureaucracy in the US and Canada. Even in unions that pride themselves on moving beyond the "service model" and towards the organizing model, very few full-time union organizers come from stereotypical working class backgrounds. Certainly, full-time union organizers share more in common with the professional left rather than shop stewards in a plant. I'm of the opinion that this is a problematic aspect of labor unions in the US and Canada.

I'd also argue that this goes beyond the union leadership/bureaucracy. As the AFL-CIO has lost ground among workers "traditional" constituencies, it has become more reliant on workers in the public sector, the service industry and "pink collar" trades. Increasingly, the AFL-CIO is an organization that primarily serves people of color, women and public employees with graduate degrees. This is why stereotypical union bureaucrats trumpet the cause of so-called social justice warriors in the US and Canada.

edit: as for the NSW election, I expect that Labor will narrowly win a majority.

[EPG]

I see no difference between thinking blacks are genetically inferior to whites and thinking that gays and lesbians have no right to marry.

You personally are perfectly entitled to think that, but because not everyone else agrees with you, there is a significant political difference between espousing these two positions, particularly in Australia which has a different political tradition to those of your country and of mine.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I don't see why Foley's opinion matters seeing as marriage is a federal matter? I mean I find the ALP's dysfunction over the issue bizarre, but the important thing is letting the NSW ALP recover from the disastrous Obeid days.

tbh the ALP has little to fear from the Greens in NSW. They are infested with Trots and tankies, much to the consternation of the federal Greenies.

[lilTommy]

I've read a number of posts predicting an ALP win, what makes people believe this?... is it common place in NSW to elect only a one-term government? the ALP was in power from 1995-2011, is the Liberal government that bad?
Is NSW traditionally an ALP state? correct me if i'm wrong here, I believe that Victoria and SA are considered stronger for the ALP, given their election into government in Victoria after only being in opposition for 1 term (with what I've read a weak leader but also helped by a bad Liberal government) earlier this month (or was it November) and STILL being the government in SA.

[morgieb]

I've read a number of posts predicting an ALP win, what makes people believe this?... is it common place in NSW to elect only a one-term government? the ALP was in power from 1995-2011, is the Liberal government that bad?
Is NSW traditionally an ALP state? correct me if i'm wrong here, I believe that Victoria and SA are considered stronger for the ALP, given their election into government in Victoria after only being in opposition for 1 term (with what I've read a weak leader but also helped by a bad Liberal government) earlier this month (or was it November) and STILL being the government in SA.

Yes. AFAIK it's the only state that didn't have a really long time for the ALP in opposition. In fact the truth is quite the opposite. This has changed recently though.

[BaconBacon96]

I like Mike Baird he seems to have been a good Premier so far and I hope the Coalition get reelected.

Since it's being discussed here, I'll ask why is the SDA union so socially conservative? I know they affiliated with the DLP for many years but I'm unsure as to why a union would be more interested in social conservatism than economic matters. Are the shop workers all traditional Catholics or something?

[morgieb]

I like Mike Baird he seems to have been a good Premier so far and I hope the Coalition get reelected.

Since it's being discussed here, I'll ask why is the SDA union so socially conservative? I know they affiliated with the DLP for many years but I'm unsure as to why a union would be more interested in social conservatism than economic matters. Are the shop workers all traditional Catholics or something?

Most shop workers are women, so AFAIK the SDA being socons has nothing to do with their membership base. Perhaps they're happy with the economic status quo and their DLP links see them fight for socially conservative matters?

As to why they have DLP links? That I can't answer.

[checkers]

Since it's being discussed here, I'll ask why is the SDA union so socially conservative? I know they affiliated with the DLP for many years but I'm unsure as to why a union would be more interested in social conservatism than economic matters. Are the shop workers all traditional Catholics or something?

I don't think the rank and file of the union are all rabid socons (apparently there's been struggle within the union on the issue), so much as the leadership and particularly Joe de Bruyn (who is a traditional Catholic, I think). But you're right that the union was conservative even before him. I think it's in the nature of retail work - casualised, often perceived as 'temporary', disproportionately done by young people and women - which creates a vulnerable workforce and thus discourages militancy.

[checkers]

Haha, I just realised that the SDA spokesperson in the article I linked is a well-known Trot at my university, so probably not the most accurate indication of the average SDA member's stance on the issue.

But yeah, following from morgieb, I feel like the base of the shop workers union should if anything be more in favour of gay marriage than the average union - given that so much retail work is carried out by women and students. I guess the fact that shop workers are either low-income and fairly vulnerable, or only there temporarily (in the case of students), makes them less inclined to challenge the leadership on the issue.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Most people don't join a trade union for any politics other than trade unionism...

[BaconBacon96]

That all makes sense. I know why they affiliated with the DLP, they were one of the first unions to join them after the 1955 split and they stuck with the party until it's first incarnation collapsed. They must just have always been controlled by advocate Catholics at the top, as the DLP was largely Catholics motivated by pure anti-communism, who have since morphed into socons.

I find that quite a shame though, using what should be an organisation that reflects its members interests to advance your own isolated views.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I find that quite a shame though, using what should be an organisation that reflects its members interests to advance your own isolated views.

Its no worse than the (far more common) tendency of some other unions to be controlled by far-left organisations, tbh.

[morgieb]

I find that quite a shame though, using what should be an organisation that reflects its members interests to advance your own isolated views.

Its no worse than the (far more common) tendency of unions to be controlled by far-left organisations, tbh.

Is that still prevalent though?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Is that still prevalent though?

I'm not sure on the specifics of that kind of thing in Australia, but there are still a few unions here run by hard-left sects (i.e. the PCS). The SDA is the same kind of thing but from the other side...

[checkers]

Is that still prevalent though?

I'm not sure on the specifics of that kind of thing in Australia, but there are still a few unions here run by hard-left sects (i.e. the PCS). The SDA is the same kind of thing but from the other side...

This is anecdotal but I did hear that there were a lot of Maoists in the BLF back in the 70s/80s? I think that might have played some role in why they took on so many non-union causes such as the Green Bans etc. But, yeah, they were deregistered, so it's hardly prevalent today (that I've heard) and I doubt there's much of a far-left influence in the Queensland BLF.

[EPG]

Why would Australian women be particularly opposed to social conservatism?

[Ebowed]

'In his first major policy announcement as NSW Labor Leader, Luke Foley has today pledged to grant the racing industry a $100 million a year tax break if he wins the March election.'

Two things we didn't have enough of, animal cruelty and gambling.

I won't be shedding any tears over his inevitable electoral failure...

[Ebowed]

Luke Foley needs to get his priorities in order.  I don't want to begin to understand a mindset where gambling is a good thing while there shouldn't be marriage equality for same-sex couples.  Maybe instead of running leaders who "borrow" their policy proposals from The Daily Telegraph, Labor should find a viable candidate or a likeable leftwinger (or, preferably, both).





I'm hoping for a Greens pickup in Newtown.  I think Summer Hill is a bit less likely (my old electorate, Marrickville, was an ALP stronghold but has been split), but it would be nice if people stopped supporting the defunct vehicle for progressive policies that is the NSW ALP.