Greek election - January 25th 2015

[justfollowingtheelections]

Sorry, but I do know what I'm talking about. The main faction of today's SYRIZA (formed in 2004) is Synaspismos, which emerged as a coalition of communist movements (the biggest components were the two Greek Communist Parties) in the 1980s. The KKE left the coalition in 1991 as Neo-Stalinists took this party over.

Of course this is simplified,  but (most of) SYRIZA represents the more eurocommunist tendency of the Greek Communist movement. You can read about it on Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_Left,_of_Movements_and_Ecology#Coalition.2C_late_1980s.E2.80.931991).

It's kinda funny that anyone would label ANEL as ''too crazy'' for SYRIZA. The former is an anti-austerity break-away from the mainstream conservatives, the latter a break-away from the Communist Party that still includes people who openly advocate Communism in a variety of its tendencies (Maoists, Trotskyists etc.).  

SYRIZA is a break-away from KKE?  That's news to me.  I don't mean to offend you but you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  And yes Kammenos is a clown.  

No you don't.  Synaspismos was a coalition of KKE and EAR that was formed in 1989 to challenge scandal-marred PASOK.  EAR was indeed eurocommunist and they opposed Soviet-style communism in any type or form.  KKE left the coalition in 1991 and Synaspismos is therefore what was once EAR.  So yes, your statement is wrong.

[justfollowingtheelections]

They were the moderate/sane wing of the Commies, yes.

I love it when ignorant people pretend to know what they're talking about.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

All well and good, but EAR was itself a KKE splinter group (initially as KKE Interior or something). They broke away due to the KKE's predictably slavish response to the crushing of the Prague Spring. Additionally - and I don't know the details - the KKE went on an insane purge spree after the fall of the Soviet Union and threw out close to half its members. I think most ended up staying in Synaspismos.

[justfollowingtheelections]

All well and good, but EAR was itself a KKE splinter group (initially as KKE Interior or something). They broke away due to the KKE's predictably slavish response to the crushing of the Prague Spring.

EAR was a KKE Interior break away party, not KKE.  KKE Interior was also a eurocommunist party that opposed Soviet-style communism.  I know it's complicated, but it's certainly a stretch to try and link SYRIZA to KKE.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

KKE Interior broke away from KKE! And, again, the KKE went and purged itself of 'revisionists' after 1991!

[Philip Weisler]

I'd be more careful with ''epithets'' like ''ignorant people'' etc. while advancing a very odd line.

For example, you forget that the KKE purged lots of its cadres around 1991 and the article I linked says, that the ''renewing part of KKE'' joined SYN. And as another forum member just said, EAR (Greek Left), was a successor to Communist Party of Greece, Interior (KKE-Interior).

They were the moderate/sane wing of the Commies, yes.

I love it when ignorant people pretend to know what they're talking about.

[justfollowingtheelections]

KKE Interior broke away from KKE! And, again, the KKE went and purged itself of 'revisionists' after 1991!

Yes KKE Interior, not SYRIZA.  SYRIZA was formed in 2004.

In very simple terms:

Eurocommunists abandon KKE in 1968 (!) and form KKE Interior.
KKE Interior splits into smaller parties in 1987.  One of them is EAR.
EAR and KKE in 1989 form Synaspismos.
In 1991 KKE leaves Synaspismos.
In 2004 Synaspismos and a number of smaller parties form SYRIZA.
In 2010 the center left wing of Synaspismos leaves and forms DIMAR.

[politicus]

It's kinda funny that someone would label ANEL as ''too crazy'' for SYRIZA. The former is an anti-austerity break-away from the mainstream conservatives..

Of course, there is the immigration issue, however, I firmly refuse to beg pardon for my view, that controlling open-borders immigration is not necessarily bad.

A Conservative party in a country with the history of Greece (civil war, military dictatorship etc.) is bound to have some crazies. As you can see with Voridis they have let people with a background on the far right (as in a Greek version of Front National) join and the ND Secretary General of the government Panayiotis Baltakos recently got fired for contacts to Golden Dawn and formed a far-right party called Rizes (Roots).

Most of the ND are run of the mill European Conservatives, but they stretch further right than a standard Conservative party. So being an ND breakaway is no guarantee for not being crazy. Whereas former Communists going towards the center are often quite reasonable and moderate politicians. There are plenty of examples of this in postwar European political history.

I will repost an evaluation of ANEL I wrote on the basis of the views of two leading Greek politologists (Takis Pappas from the European University Institute in Florence and Paris Aslanidis from the University of Macedonia in Thessalanoki) as presented in "Greek Populism: A political drama in five acts" (with my own conclusion at the end):

ANEL are basically conspiracy theorists. "Behind all the toiling and suffering of the Greek people lie the forces of the New World Order and their scheme for global domination". All governing coalitions after 2011 are accused of being collaborators with the NWO, which will try to take over Greece in three stages:

1) Deprive Greeks of private property (through taxes, inflation etc. )

2) Do the same with public property (selling off national assets to foreigners)

3) Undermine and disband the armed forces, thus dissolving the Greek state into a European federation under German rule - a  "4th Reich"  (lots of references to Nazi assault and occupation of Greece during WW2).

(current rulers are of course nothing but collaborators and the "regime" a product of German economic imperialism and  lacks all kind of democratic legitimacy)

There is an ongoing attack by foreign forces at the Greek nation and Christian Orthodox traditions. Immigrants are seen as a weapon in the hands of the New World Order (their program demands a quota for immigrants with a maximum of 2.5% foreigners in the population).

Economy: Very low corporate taxes (8%) and VAT to kick-start the economy and focus on export-oriented growth, but also zero layoffs in the public sector since a large protective state is "an indispensable provider of welfare and security to the Greek citizenry" and Greece of course needs a strong military to protect the nation, so defense expenses needs to go up.

It is a classic populist low taxes and lots of welfare program with no thorns among the roses (for ethnic Greeks).

...

ANEL are conspiracy theories + populism + xenophobia + grandstanding, posturing and big talk by their pompous buffoon leader. It is not a serious "Conservative" party in any way. Parts of their official platform are relevant in an evaluation, but you need to put it into context. You can not understand them without considering their bizarre worldview.

[justfollowingtheelections]

I'd be more careful with ''epithets'' like ''ignorant people'' etc. while advancing a very odd line.

For example, you forget that the KKE purged lots of its cadres around 1991 and the article I linked says, that the ''renewing part of KKE'' joined SYN. And as another forum member just said, EAR (Greek Left), was a successor to Communist Party of Greece, Interior (KKE-Interior).

They were the moderate/sane wing of the Commies, yes.

I love it when ignorant people pretend to know what they're talking about.

Will you admit that your initial statement was wrong?

[Philip Weisler]

''Will you admit that your initial statement was wrong?''

I can't see how the points made by you (as well as Sibboleth) could be seen to conflict my summary, that SYRIZA is heir to the moderate communist tendency? Of course, like ANEL which immediately attracted one or two PASOK MPs is not 100% ex-ND, SYRIZA is not 100% ex-KKE, but that's exactly where its roots are, i.e. the more moderate, more cooperative, more eurocommunist tendencies of the old KKE as well as various other communist groups.

I'd be more careful with ''epithets'' like ''ignorant people'' etc. while advancing a very odd line.

For example, you forget that the KKE purged lots of its cadres around 1991 and the article I linked says, that the ''renewing part of KKE'' joined SYN. And as another forum member just said, EAR (Greek Left), was a successor to Communist Party of Greece, Interior (KKE-Interior).

They were the moderate/sane wing of the Commies, yes.

I love it when ignorant people pretend to know what they're talking about.

Will you admit that your initial statement was wrong?

[justfollowingtheelections]

''Will you admit that your initial statement was wrong?''

I can't see how the points made by you (as well as Sibboleth) could be seen to conflict my summary, that SYRIZA is heir to the moderate communist tendency? Of course, like ANEL which immediately attracted one or two PASOK MPs is not 100% ex-ND, SYRIZA is not 100% ex-KKE, but that's exactly where its roots are, i.e. the more moderate, more cooperative, more eurocommunist tendencies of the old KKE as well as various other communist groups.

That's not what you said.  The statement that I objected to is that SYRIZA is a KKE break-away party.


ETA: Even this statement is inaccurate.  SYRIZA isn't the heir to moderate communist tendencies.  Eurocommunists weren't necessarily the moderates.  What defined them was their rejection of Soviet-style dictatorships and their more liberal social views.  So they were quite different than what we usually describe as communists.

[Velasco]

ANEL is going with Kammenos teaching a cute boy (symbolically named Alexis..) how to run a model train:

Alexis+Kammenos sounds like a Byzantine emperor.

The vid is quite hilarious, although I have to say that Argentinian are much better (especially Menem 2003 ). Thank you very much for the bit of fun.

[Philip Weisler]

To be honest I composed a longish reply for you but lost it as the log-in function has been messing this evening. The sources should be enough actually. No I don't think I was wrong when I characterized SYRIZA as a ''break-away from the communist party'', it's simplification like ''ANEL as break-away from the ND''. I'd link to academia.edu/1922581/Creating_The_Scarecrow_The_2004_Athens_Olympic_Games_and_the_Greek_Financial_Crisis, opendemocracy.net/aristos-doxiadis-manos-matsaganis/national-populism-and-xenophobia-in-greece (ok, blog but uses my term in the same context), grammatikhilfe.com/europeanInstitute/research/hellenicObservatory/pdf/4th_%20Symposium/PAPERS_PPS/POLITICAL%20PARTIES%20II/ELEFTHERIOU.pdf

''Will you admit that your initial statement was wrong?''

I can't see how the points made by you (as well as Sibboleth) could be seen to conflict my summary, that SYRIZA is heir to the moderate communist tendency? Of course, like ANEL which immediately attracted one or two PASOK MPs is not 100% ex-ND, SYRIZA is not 100% ex-KKE, but that's exactly where its roots are, i.e. the more moderate, more cooperative, more eurocommunist tendencies of the old KKE as well as various other communist groups.

That's not what you said.  The statement that I objected to is that SYRIZA is a KKE break-away party.


ETA: Even this statement is inaccurate.  SYRIZA isn't the heir to moderate communist tendencies.  Eurocommunists weren't necessarily the moderates.  What defined them was their rejection of Soviet-style dictatorships and their more liberal social views.  So they were quite different than what we usually describe as communists.

[Philip Weisler]

@Charlotte

That's an interesting post. I know, ANEL has been hyping ''teh evil Germanz'' conspiracy theories. Nevertheless, in the European Parliament their MEP sits in the mainstream Conservative faction.

Did I use Google in the wrong way but I didn't get any English hits for ''Independent Greeks''+NWO. Is the belief in such nonsense that prevalent among the party?

''Whereas former Communists going towards the center are often quite reasonable and moderate politicians. There are plenty of examples of this in postwar European political history''

Yes, once they give up their former views. The Polish SDL and related movements have been quite harmless. DIMAR also consists of ''nice guys'' it seems. As for those who sincerely claim Marx's revolutionary ideas are still relevant and should still be put into practise, then I wouldn't characterize any of those as moderate. I mean, a commie who gives up Marxism-Leninism obviously can be a ''moderate'', but he is not a communist any more in that case.

[justfollowingtheelections]

To be honest I composed a longish reply for you but lost it as the log-in function has been messing this evening. The sources should be enough actually. No I don't think I was wrong when I characterized SYRIZA as a ''break-away from the communist party'', it's simplification like ''ANEL as break-away from the ND''. I'd link to academia.edu/1922581/Creating_The_Scarecrow_The_2004_Athens_Olympic_Games_and_the_Greek_Financial_Crisis, opendemocracy.net/aristos-doxiadis-manos-matsaganis/national-populism-and-xenophobia-in-greece (ok, blog but uses my term in the same context), grammatikhilfe.com/europeanInstitute/research/hellenicObservatory/pdf/4th_%20Symposium/PAPERS_PPS/POLITICAL%20PARTIES%20II/ELEFTHERIOU.pdf

''Will you admit that your initial statement was wrong?''

I can't see how the points made by you (as well as Sibboleth) could be seen to conflict my summary, that SYRIZA is heir to the moderate communist tendency? Of course, like ANEL which immediately attracted one or two PASOK MPs is not 100% ex-ND, SYRIZA is not 100% ex-KKE, but that's exactly where its roots are, i.e. the more moderate, more cooperative, more eurocommunist tendencies of the old KKE as well as various other communist groups.

That's not what you said.  The statement that I objected to is that SYRIZA is a KKE break-away party.


ETA: Even this statement is inaccurate.  SYRIZA isn't the heir to moderate communist tendencies.  Eurocommunists weren't necessarily the moderates.  What defined them was their rejection of Soviet-style dictatorships and their more liberal social views.  So they were quite different than what we usually describe as communists.

Well no offense, but you're wrong, stubborn and unwilling to admit your mistake.  ANEL did break away from ND, SYRIZA didn't break away from KKE as I explained in another post.  Anyway, I'm ending this because we're derailing the thread.

[Philip Weisler]

Well you shouldn't start shouting over semantic games.

I'll illustrate with a quote by you:

''KKE left the coalition in 1991 and Synaspismos is therefore what was once EAR.  So yes, your statement is wrong.''

No, strictly speaking this (''Synaspismos is therefore what was once EAR'') is completely wrong as 2/5 of KKE cadres plus half
the Political Bureau and Central Committee were ousted from the party and entered Synaspismos in 1991.

[y]

 Nevertheless, in the European Parliament their MEP sits in the mainstream Conservative faction.

no, ANEL sits in the ECR fraction, togehter with f.e. the british conservatives and the ge4rman AfD.

another point: when you say, someone who breaks with ML cannot be described as a communist anymore, this does simply show that you do not know good about the history and the flowers of the communist movement.

rotfront,

y

[Philip Weisler]

I can understand when a more left-wing person claims AfD is ''dangerously rightist'' or something but mr. Cameron is completely harmless for you. Has he already spoken on the Charlie massacre ''having nothing to do with Islam''? He sure will. He may be still somewhat euroskeptic, after all he leads the party of Thatcher, however, otherwise Cameron is quite similar to CDU or UMP.

 Nevertheless, in the European Parliament their MEP sits in the mainstream Conservative faction.

no, ANEL sits in the ECR fraction, togehter with f.e. the british conservatives and the ge4rman AfD.

another point: when you say, someone who breaks with ML cannot be described as a communist anymore, this does simply show that you do not know good about the history and the flowers of the communist movement.

rotfront,

y

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Can't we all set aside the bickering, and concentrate on the really important issues? Namely: laughing at how lame PASOK are and how vainglorious its former leader is.

Remember when Greek politics was in tremendous danger of Paprandeau followed by Karamanlis followed by Paprandeau followed by Karamanlis followed by Paprandeau...?

[y]

I can understand when a more left-wing person claims AfD is ''dangerously rightist'' or something but mr. Cameron

 I just wanted to state that ecr is not the mainstream conservative faction in EP.
 

[Philip Weisler]

Depends on how we're gonna define mainstream of course. EPP has many more MEPs. In my opinion, as a whole, both ECR and EPP can be seen as mainstream conservative, as opposed to smaller, more radically right-wing/anti-EU groups. Tories in the UK and Fianna Fáil in Ireland have always been mainstream. Some smaller Eastern European member parties of ECR may not be mainstream. But remember, the controversial Fidesz still sits with the EPP.

I can understand when a more left-wing person claims AfD is ''dangerously rightist'' or something but mr. Cameron

 I just wanted to state that ecr is not the mainstream conservative faction in EP.
 

[politicus]

ECR is a very mixed bag of right wing populists, libertarians, National Conservatives and mainstream Conservatives like the Tories and Fianna Fail. You can not deduce anything about ANEL from their membership of this apart from the party being right wing and not Neo-Nazi.

It stretches from the Tories over AfD and PiS to (moderate) right wing populists such as DPP/True Finns in Scandinavia to the Croatian Party of Rights dr. Ante Starčević.

[Insula Dei]

ECR is a very mixed bag of right wing populists, libertarians, National Conservatives and mainstream Conservatives like the Tories and Fianna Fail. You can not deduce anything about ANEL from their membership of this apart from the party being right wing and not Neo-Nazi.

It stretches from Fianna Fail and Tories over AfD, DPP/True Finns in Scandinavia to Croatian Party of Rights dr. Ante Starčević.

It's basically the kids noone wants to play with going off to another playground of their own.

[EPG]

I feel it is only fair to point out that Fianna Fáil is affiliated to ALDE, and that their only MEP elected in 2014 was expelled from the parliamentary party for joining ECR.

[politicus]

I feel it is only fair to point out that Fianna Fáil is affiliated to ALDE, and that their only MEP elected in 2014 was expelled from the parliamentary party for joining ECR.

Okay, I should mention that apart from the Tories the other big group is Polish PiS. Also not exactly a moderate party.

Anyway, Philip when evaluating what is the main group of something in the EP apart from number of MEPs it is a good rule of thumb to go by the German parties. When it comes to Europe whereever the Germans are is where the center of gravity is.