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  Tender's megathread on crime in Austria
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Author Topic: Tender's megathread on crime in Austria  (Read 40402 times)
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« Reply #325 on: June 09, 2018, 06:21:14 pm »

I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.
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« Reply #326 on: June 09, 2018, 07:50:19 pm »
« Edited: June 09, 2018, 08:02:00 pm by DavidB. »

I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.
Yeah, I think here they were mostly not welcome in mosques, and those who have gone that far down the rabbit hole are also likely to be paranoid enough to avoid going there, as intelligence services usually know damn well in which mosques they should have infiltrators and sources. Those who are at that stage of radicalization usually meet up in living rooms. Radicalization often does start in these mosques though.

Not completely convinced salafism was the issue here, even though Kurz and Strache did mention political Islam, because they also talked about far-right extremism and ties to the Grey Wolves. That's a whole different issue, I'd say. At least organizations tied to the Grey Wolves here are associated with different types of problematic behavior (violent crime, mafia stuff, intimidation of political opponents in other Turkish organizations), but not with salafism, which is more of a problem in Arab than in Turkish mosques in the first place.
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« Reply #327 on: June 09, 2018, 08:40:33 pm »

I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.
Yeah, I think here they were mostly not welcome in mosques, and those who have gone that far down the rabbit hole are also likely to be paranoid enough to avoid going there, as intelligence services usually know damn well in which mosques they should have infiltrators and sources. Those who are at that stage of radicalization usually meet up in living rooms. Radicalization often does start in these mosques though.

Not completely convinced salafism was the issue here, even though Kurz and Strache did mention political Islam, because they also talked about far-right extremism and ties to the Grey Wolves. That's a whole different issue, I'd say. At least organizations tied to the Grey Wolves here are associated with different types of problematic behavior (violent crime, mafia stuff, intimidation of political opponents in other Turkish organizations), but not with salafism, which is more of a problem in Arab than in Turkish mosques in the first place.

Yeah, the Grey Wolves connection is a lot less sticky a reason to target these mosques and organisations; they're basically a criminal syndicate like the Mafia.

I don't think people or religions should be targeted because they are conservative though, as long as they are not preaching hate (calls to genocide etc). That said, I think the state should work with religions to make them less patriarchal and closed off.
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tack50
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« Reply #328 on: June 09, 2018, 09:06:33 pm »

Is it just in America where we hold freedoms of speech and religion as sacred? It sounds like many of the European posters in this thread agree with this, while I know of many Americans, from far-right to far-left, that would see this as violating freedoms of religion.


Yup. I'll say that in general Americans have a more "laissez faire" approach to freedom of religion and freedom of speech while most European countries have more restrictive approaches. Whether that's a good or a bad thing though I don't know.

I will say that for my country (Spain), freedom of speech is almost certainly too restricted (tons of people have been unfairly sent to jail). But I will say we are doing ok in freedom of religion.

If my country were say throwing journalists in prison, I would not say we are doing ok in freedom of the press... Why do you say Spain is doing ok in freedom of speech? Am I missing something?

I said we're bad at freedom of the press but ok in religion.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #329 on: June 09, 2018, 11:22:34 pm »

Meanwhile, the Islamo-Fascist Erdogan has foam in front of his mouth, saying that Austria is starting a new crusade:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/erdogan-warns-austria-imam-crackdown-will-lead-to-holy-war

Good to see this fu**er's tentacles finally being cut here and his 5th column organisations being crushed. If his followers here still do not adopt to our lifestyle after 3 generations in the country and use Grey wolves salutes to promote extremist political Islam, it's better for them to go home to Turkey, where they belong.
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« Reply #330 on: June 10, 2018, 08:12:31 pm »

So is Israel the emblematic example of Political Judaism? Are American evangelical political activists Political Christianity?

This is yet another example of criminalizing Muslims who dare to speak out - or worse, declaring them a terrorist national security threat. F--k that disgusting bigoted bullsh*t.

What-about-ism strong here. We're talking about Europe; Islam is the biggest threat to safety, women's rights, and gay rights there.
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« Reply #331 on: June 11, 2018, 07:10:58 am »
« Edited: June 11, 2018, 10:07:01 am by Meclazine »

I take it the Serbs are on board:



The Austrian's smashed the Mongolian warlords 335 years ago. It appears to be a historical cultural gate into Europe.

It's amazing that Europe just opens its' doors and lets refugees flood in. Literally.

There is helping out refugees on the one hand, but the refugee situation in Otaly with African's flooding across the Mediterranean is unprecedented.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/11/europe/msf-migrant-boat-italy-malta/index.html

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« Reply #332 on: June 11, 2018, 08:00:02 am »

I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.
Yeah, I think here they were mostly not welcome in mosques, and those who have gone that far down the rabbit hole are also likely to be paranoid enough to avoid going there, as intelligence services usually know damn well in which mosques they should have infiltrators and sources. Those who are at that stage of radicalization usually meet up in living rooms. Radicalization often does start in these mosques though.

Not completely convinced salafism was the issue here, even though Kurz and Strache did mention political Islam, because they also talked about far-right extremism and ties to the Grey Wolves. That's a whole different issue, I'd say. At least organizations tied to the Grey Wolves here are associated with different types of problematic behavior (violent crime, mafia stuff, intimidation of political opponents in other Turkish organizations), but not with salafism, which is more of a problem in Arab than in Turkish mosques in the first place.

Yeah, the Grey Wolves connection is a lot less sticky a reason to target these mosques and organisations; they're basically a criminal syndicate like the Mafia.

I don't think people or religions should be targeted because they are conservative though, as long as they are not preaching hate (calls to genocide etc). That said, I think the state should work with religions to make them less patriarchal and closed off.

I'm on board with this except for your last sentence which I don't understand. What do you mean by that?
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« Reply #333 on: June 11, 2018, 08:53:59 am »

I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.
Yeah, I think here they were mostly not welcome in mosques, and those who have gone that far down the rabbit hole are also likely to be paranoid enough to avoid going there, as intelligence services usually know damn well in which mosques they should have infiltrators and sources. Those who are at that stage of radicalization usually meet up in living rooms. Radicalization often does start in these mosques though.

Not completely convinced salafism was the issue here, even though Kurz and Strache did mention political Islam, because they also talked about far-right extremism and ties to the Grey Wolves. That's a whole different issue, I'd say. At least organizations tied to the Grey Wolves here are associated with different types of problematic behavior (violent crime, mafia stuff, intimidation of political opponents in other Turkish organizations), but not with salafism, which is more of a problem in Arab than in Turkish mosques in the first place.

Yeah, the Grey Wolves connection is a lot less sticky a reason to target these mosques and organisations; they're basically a criminal syndicate like the Mafia.

I don't think people or religions should be targeted because they are conservative though, as long as they are not preaching hate (calls to genocide etc). That said, I think the state should work with religions to make them less patriarchal and closed off.

I'm on board with this except for your last sentence which I don't understand. What do you mean by that?

I think ideally, religions and the state would work together a bit more. For example, I think the state should clamp down on unregulated madrassas/religious schools and ensure that religious children are not grown up in isolation. Ideally I would ban schools from having religious requirements to enrol entirely, but that might be too much. I also think the state should promote gender parity in religion, and try and cajole as many female inmans/clergy as possible (within theological limits). Maybe there should be more effort in RE classes to teach that all religious perspectives should be treated as equally valid, and that no one centralised book or person has all answers (not state atheism or anything, just a contextualisation of religion).
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« Reply #334 on: June 11, 2018, 09:08:18 am »

As a Muslim I don't mind radicals being shut out, but my concern is eventually it'll spread to wanting to shut all mosques down, this is a slippery slope.
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« Reply #335 on: June 11, 2018, 10:11:44 am »

America's standards for freedom continue to be much higher than Europe's.
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« Reply #336 on: June 11, 2018, 11:33:57 am »

As a Muslim I don't mind radicals being shut out, but my concern is eventually it'll spread to wanting to shut all mosques down, this is a slippery slope.

This issue will continue to become more salient as the quantity of Muslims in Europe grows.  Austria has literally gone from 0% Muslim in the 1960's to probably 7.5-8% today.  That trend is only accelerating with the mass migration of 2014-2016.  If current trends continue, and given demographics there is no reason they shouldn't unless Europe has a wholesale political/ethical/legal transformation, Austria will be over 20% Muslim by 2050 and could be approaching 50% by the end of the century.

Question is will those people become fully Austrian only with a different faith?  Will they view Austria's history, culture, and heroes as theirs?  If not the tension will only increase over the coming decades.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #337 on: June 11, 2018, 12:25:31 pm »

Guys, this is non-controversial.

If you think that these actions are anti-Muslim of some sort, you are really living in your own, disturbed reality.

Even several Muslim experts and a Muslim MP from the VP here agreed that this action was more than necessary, after nothing has been done in the past to weed out radicalism (such as indoctrination of children and the youth in mosques) and outside financing in the Muslim community.

The timing was probably badly chosen (they should have waited until after Erdogan's "election"), but the government has said they needed to act right after the results of their evaluation were presented and that "they don't give a damn about Erdogan and what he says/wants".
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« Reply #338 on: June 14, 2018, 01:23:13 pm »

As a Muslim I don't mind radicals being shut out, but my concern is eventually it'll spread to wanting to shut all mosques down, this is a slippery slope.
That wouldn't be a bad thing, tbh.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #339 on: June 14, 2018, 11:24:51 pm »

New 24/Research Affairs poll:

88% of Austrian voters support VP-FP's recent announcement to close several mosques, deport up to 60 extremist, non-integrating imams and stop outside financing in a major effort to combat political Islam.

http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/Aktuelle-Umfrage-Plus-fuer-die-Regierung/337337093
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« Reply #340 on: June 14, 2018, 11:59:24 pm »

New 24/Research Affairs poll:

88% of Austrian voters support VP-FP's recent announcement to close several mosques, deport up to 60 extremist, non-integrating imams and stop outside financing in a major effort to combat political Islam.

http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/Aktuelle-Umfrage-Plus-fuer-die-Regierung/337337093
Not a shock considering the common sense behind such moves. Wish more in Europe would join in.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #341 on: June 16, 2018, 10:53:51 am »

Another new poll - by the political "Profil" magazine - also shows overwhelming support for the mosque closures, imam deportations and stop to financing from abroad:



66% - the measures taken are appropriate
14% - the measures taken are not tough enough

10% - the measures taken are too tough
10% - undecided

https://www.profil.at/oesterreich/umfrage-massnahmen-moscheen-imame-10138695
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #342 on: June 18, 2018, 11:30:55 am »

Several disgusting foreigner crimes happened over the past week:

* On Friday, a Tunisian delivery driver killed a retired couple in their home in Linz, because he blamed the FP for all his misery in life and thought the 2 were FP-voters (they were not). In fact, the 2 gave their killer money several times to help him with his failing delivery business. A couple years ago, a neighbour called the police because the killer was abusing animals - which led to an actual conviction of animal abuse. The killer said the neighbour was an "FP-voter". The crime was particularly cruel, because first he killed the almost 90-year old woman by strangling her. Then he killed the almost 90-year old blind husband with a wooden rod, in which he put nails. He also stabbed him to death. Then he put gasoline on the bodies and burned down the house. The same day, he went to a police station, waited in line for some time until an officer had time for him and confessed the murders.

The trial for this fu**er started today and he faces life in prison of course.

In court today, he had the balls to show self-made signs: "You are all liars."

(He confessed in court though that he was an IS-sympathizer, after evidence was found on his computer).



http://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2919404
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Bacon King
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« Reply #343 on: June 18, 2018, 01:45:12 pm »

Meanwhile, the Islamo-Fascist Erdogan has foam in front of his mouth


pot, meet kettle

Have you always been a rabid Austro-Fascist or is this a relatively new development?
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #344 on: June 18, 2018, 01:58:42 pm »

Meanwhile, the Islamo-Fascist Erdogan has foam in front of his mouth


pot, meet kettle

Have you always been a rabid Austro-Fascist or is this a relatively new development?

Please get rid of your Erdogan-fetish. It's not healthy for you.
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Eli Gorbinsky
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« Reply #345 on: June 18, 2018, 02:52:12 pm »

Meanwhile, the Islamo-Fascist Erdogan has foam in front of his mouth


pot, meet kettle

Have you always been a rabid Austro-Fascist or is this a relatively new development?

Tender has been irreversibly traumatized by having his bike stolen by an asylum seeker.
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Eli Gorbinsky
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« Reply #346 on: June 18, 2018, 02:54:36 pm »

As a Muslim I don't mind radicals being shut out, but my concern is eventually it'll spread to wanting to shut all mosques down, this is a slippery slope.

That's a valid concern, as the Austrian government is clearly more interested in scoring political points with Tenders than fundamental fairness.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #347 on: June 18, 2018, 03:03:38 pm »

Meanwhile, the Islamo-Fascist Erdogan has foam in front of his mouth


pot, meet kettle

Have you always been a rabid Austro-Fascist or is this a relatively new development?

Tender has been irreversibly traumatized by having his bike stolen by an asylum seeker.

No, plus we got the bike back. This happened when I was like 10 or 11 and I'm not even sure if that Kenyan actually "stole" that bike or if he just took it for a roundtrip along the river and then would have returned it (at least, that's what he said). So, my father didn't call the police back then.

As a Muslim I don't mind radicals being shut out, but my concern is eventually it'll spread to wanting to shut all mosques down, this is a slippery slope.

That's a valid concern, as the Austrian government is clearly more interested in scoring political points with Tenders than fundamental fairness.

That's a crazy statement: the current government is the one with the most fairness on the topic of immigration in decades. Previously, nothing has happened and unchecked immigration without regulations was tolerated and the native population had to suffer from the excesses that were allowed to take place. Now, this is being corrected. Thank Goodness ! Better now, than never.

Also, the concern that VP+FP wants to close all mosques is also crazy: Austria has more than 300 mosques and prayer rooms and only 7 of the most extreme were closed (those operated by the Turks and Saudis, with outside money and where children posed as corpses). Kurz+Strache will easily uphold freedom of religion and won't egage in any large-scale mosque closings.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #348 on: June 21, 2018, 11:42:27 pm »

The 28-year old Sophia L., a student in Leipzig, wanted to hitchhike and visit her family back in Bavaria, which is when she disappeared.

Her brother, a Green-politician from Bavaria, said that she worked as a refugee aide.

Yesterday, it became known that her body was found at a gas station in the Basque Country (Spain) and a 40-year old truck driver from Morocco has been arrested.

https://www.rtl.de/cms/medienberichte-vermutlich-leiche-von-vermisster-tramperin-sophia-l-in-spanien-gefunden-4180973.html

Horrible.
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« Reply #349 on: June 22, 2018, 05:39:21 am »

It seems to me that the suspect is not actually an immigrant.

Still a horrible crime. RIP.
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