French Jews Planning Mass Exodus in Wake of Terrorist Attacks

[ag]

Moving from France to Israel because of a terrorist attack is like moving from the US to Mexico because of criminal violence.

And I am sure, there are some who do that as well. Human behavior is a misterious thing.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There's a grand total of two countries in Europe (Hungary and Greece) where openly anti-Semitic parties hold seats in parliament. That's a far too high number, as are the number of seats those parties hold in their respective countries, but it doesn't probably show that all of Europe isn't some raging hotbed of anti-Semitism.

But wouldn't you agree, BRTD (and, unlike the rest of this post, I'm speaking to you non-sarcastically), that "anti-Semitic parties hold seats in parliament" is a catastrophic level of anti-Semitism, and that people might feel threatened before discrimination reaches that level?

But this isn't about Jews moving from Hungary or Greece.

[ag]

Things should be put into right perspective.

France has the third largest Jewish community anywhere in the world: only in Israel and in the US it is larger. Seven thousand is, what, 1% of French Jewish population? Most likely, more Jews have been born in france than left last year. Even if 70 thousand leave (something that I have hard time envisioning), France will still have the third largest Jewish community in the world. Of course, in a community this large there will be people who tend to exaggerate. And, of course, Israeli government will do its best to exploit that for the purposes of fomenting Jewish emigration. I am pretty certain, though, that in 20 years France will still have the third largest Jewish community in the world, and vast majority of its members will continue being comfortable in France.

[ag]

While I doubt the long term viability of the Zionist state, I don't see Israel collapsing anytime this century.

By that definition, couldn't you doubt the 'viability' of any state? I doubt the US will still be here in the year 4000.

The US is unlikely to collapse in a manner that causes its inhabitants to flee for somewhere else.  The State of Israel is likely to so collapse.  Israel has chosen to base its existence upon the proposition that it will always be militarily superior to its neighbors.  That is true now, but it will not always be true.

You are making pretty damn confident predictions for the year 4000 2000 years ago few people would have predicted a collapse of the Roman Empire

[ag]

Most of these people will end up moving back to France or moving to America 10 years from now when the Israeli state ends up collapsing.

If that happens, chances are that most of these people are dead in 10 years. I hope, you realize that, when you dream of Israeli collapse.

[MalaspinaGold]

While I doubt the long term viability of the Zionist state, I don't see Israel collapsing anytime this century.

By that definition, couldn't you doubt the 'viability' of any state? I doubt the US will still be here in the year 4000.

The US is unlikely to collapse in a manner that causes its inhabitants to flee for somewhere else.  The State of Israel is likely to so collapse.  Israel has chosen to base its existence upon the proposition that it will always be militarily superior to its neighbors.  That is true now, but it will not always be true.

Easier said than done, considering Israel's closest allies in the region just happen to be its neighbors...

[ag]

While I doubt the long term viability of the Zionist state, I don't see Israel collapsing anytime this century.

Please get one thing: this is no longer about a "Zionist state". You could argue a 100 years back, whether gathering Jews in Palestine was a good idea (frankly, I do not think it was). But 100 years is a long time. Over the last 100 years a community of millions of people with no other home has been created. This is not the hypothetical colonization project of old - it is a midsized nation. Now, I do not like the Zionist presumption to speak for the entire "Jewish people". I, for one, have nothing to do with this idea - or this state. But, whatever happens, these people are in the Middle East to stay. They are not going anywhere - because they have no other homeland. In that respect, they are like the Afrikaners of South Africa - but they are much more concentrated on a much smaller piece of land, in which they are a clear majority.

True, it is not impossible that, eventually, an integrated state emerges there (like it has in South Africa - an outcome I, personally, would find quite appropriate). Or else some sort of a partition will be implemented. But, unless a major catastrophe happens, any future of Israel-Palestine will involve a large Jewish community that will be a crucial part of whatever state(s) there is (are). This no longer requires any "Zionist" idea: just a lack of a massive ethnic cleansing. This is something to keep in mind when talking of "validity" or whatever of Israel: it is as "valid" as the lives of those people currently inhabiting it. So, I would avoid using such language,  less others make an obvious conclusion of what you mean.

[ag]

If that's what they feel needs to be done, then good. I have given up any hope of Europe's capability (or in some cases, desire) to protect their shrinking Jewish minority. Whether the next step is emigration to Israel or a less-hostile Western nation, I can only hope they find the peace and security that various elements are determined to deny them in Europe.

Europe is not a country.

France has the largest Jewish population and the most recent tragedy, but the harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of Jews is a continent-wide problem right now.

Though not nearly as serious as harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of, say, Muslims.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

How about Detroit? I don't think there's a lot of anti-semitism there. They just kill you regardless of your religion.

[ingemann]

If that's what they feel needs to be done, then good. I have given up any hope of Europe's capability (or in some cases, desire) to protect their shrinking Jewish minority. Whether the next step is emigration to Israel or a less-hostile Western nation, I can only hope they find the peace and security that various elements are determined to deny them in Europe.

Europe is not a country.

France has the largest Jewish population and the most recent tragedy, but the harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of Jews is a continent-wide problem right now.

Though not nearly as serious as harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of, say, Muslims.

I disagree, unless you mean something internal in their community.

[Gustaf]

Living in Israel as a Jew is probably safer than living in many parts of Europe. One of my good friends who moved from Sweden to Israel certainly thinks so.

[SWE]

Because it's Israel committing atrocities in Gaza

Yes

[andrew_c]

Living in Israel as a Jew is probably safer than living in many parts of Europe. One of my good friends who moved from Sweden to Israel certainly thinks so.

Being a targeted minority is much more dangerous than being the majority in a country with a high terror risk.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Some important context that is often overlooked in this discussion; most French Jews are of North African Sephardi origin and are relatively recent (and not exactly entirely voluntarily) migrants (1950s-60s) to France. Often half a family ended up in France and the other half in Israel.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Though not nearly as serious as harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of, say, Muslims.

Depends on the country and sometimes where in the country. But both things are (of course!) deplorable and it's certainly not a contest...

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

While I doubt the long term viability of the Zionist state, I don't see Israel collapsing anytime this century.

By that definition, couldn't you doubt the 'viability' of any state? I doubt the US will still be here in the year 4000.

The US is unlikely to collapse in a manner that causes its inhabitants to flee for somewhere else.  The State of Israel is likely to so collapse.  Israel has chosen to base its existence upon the proposition that it will always be militarily superior to its neighbors.  That is true now, but it will not always be true.

You are making pretty damn confident predictions for the year 4000 2000 years ago few people would have predicted a collapse of the Roman Empire

Considering that 2000 years ago, Tiberius was trying to maintain the fiction that Rome was still a Republic, it's no surprise that few would have predicted a collapse.  Yet by and large, the descendants of the Romans still live within the old imperial boundaries.

[Vosem]

While I doubt the long term viability of the Zionist state, I don't see Israel collapsing anytime this century.

By that definition, couldn't you doubt the 'viability' of any state? I doubt the US will still be here in the year 4000.

The US is unlikely to collapse in a manner that causes its inhabitants to flee for somewhere else.  The State of Israel is likely to so collapse.  Israel has chosen to base its existence upon the proposition that it will always be militarily superior to its neighbors.  That is true now, but it will not always be true.

How can you say with confidence Israel will still need military superiority over its neighbors 50 or 100 or 200 years from now? Would you have said 20 years ago that Armenia would fall apart without military superiority over Azerbaijan?

There's a grand total of two countries in Europe (Hungary and Greece) where openly anti-Semitic parties hold seats in parliament. That's a far too high number, as are the number of seats those parties hold in their respective countries, but it doesn't probably show that all of Europe isn't some raging hotbed of anti-Semitism.

But wouldn't you agree, BRTD (and, unlike the rest of this post, I'm speaking to you non-sarcastically), that "anti-Semitic parties hold seats in parliament" is a catastrophic level of anti-Semitism, and that people might feel threatened before discrimination reaches that level?

But this isn't about Jews moving from Hungary or Greece.

The point I was trying to make is that, while Hungary and Greece have perhaps the highest levels, Jews might feel threatened at levels below the very highest ones. Such as the ones in France.

How about Detroit? I don't think there's a lot of anti-semitism there. They just kill you regardless of your religion.

I suppose that's why Jews aren't moving en masse to Detroit.

Because it's Israel committing atrocities in Gaza

Yes

I understand Hamas apologists are usually too dense to grasp the concept of "sarcasm".

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

While I doubt the long term viability of the Zionist state, I don't see Israel collapsing anytime this century.

By that definition, couldn't you doubt the 'viability' of any state? I doubt the US will still be here in the year 4000.

The US is unlikely to collapse in a manner that causes its inhabitants to flee for somewhere else.  The State of Israel is likely to so collapse.  Israel has chosen to base its existence upon the proposition that it will always be militarily superior to its neighbors.  That is true now, but it will not always be true.

How can you say with confidence Israel will still need military superiority over its neighbors 50 or 100 or 200 years from now? Would you have said 20 years ago that Armenia would fall apart without military superiority over Azerbaijan?

Armenia-Azerbaijan is stabilized by external pressure and Nagorno-Karabakh is more on level of East Prussia/Kallingrad than on the level of Jerusalem in terms of its territorial importance to the two sides.

[ag]

If that's what they feel needs to be done, then good. I have given up any hope of Europe's capability (or in some cases, desire) to protect their shrinking Jewish minority. Whether the next step is emigration to Israel or a less-hostile Western nation, I can only hope they find the peace and security that various elements are determined to deny them in Europe.

Europe is not a country.

France has the largest Jewish population and the most recent tragedy, but the harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of Jews is a continent-wide problem right now.

Though not nearly as serious as harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of, say, Muslims.

I disagree, unless you mean something internal in their community.

Have you tried being Muslim in Europe?

[ingemann]

If that's what they feel needs to be done, then good. I have given up any hope of Europe's capability (or in some cases, desire) to protect their shrinking Jewish minority. Whether the next step is emigration to Israel or a less-hostile Western nation, I can only hope they find the peace and security that various elements are determined to deny them in Europe.

Europe is not a country.

France has the largest Jewish population and the most recent tragedy, but the harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of Jews is a continent-wide problem right now.

Though not nearly as serious as harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing of, say, Muslims.

I disagree, unless you mean something internal in their community.

Have you tried being Muslim in Europe?

Assalamu alaikum my brother.

 I would have agreed if he said there was widespread informal discrimination of Muslims, but there's a significant difference between that and what was said. Of course it also depend on how we define Europe, I wouldn't like to be Muslim on Crimea right now. But in western Europe, it seems most Muslims prefer to be Muslims there rather than being Muslims in Egypt, Syria, Albania or Turkey, so the scale of the "harassment, intimidation, and terrorizing" can't be that great.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

It's far more dangerous to be Muslim in France than Jewish in France.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Firstly, it is not a contest. Secondly, that's statistically untrue at present.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This narrative is highly exaggerated.

The suspicion has to be that those promoting it generally want it to be so (if for different reasons).

[Comrade Funk]

It's far more dangerous to be Muslim in France than Jewish in France.

History in the last ten years would prove otherwise.

[ag]

It's far more dangerous to be Muslim in France than Jewish in France.

History in the last ten years would prove otherwise.

Especially, if you do not care about Muslims in France.