Affirmative Consent in Post-Secondary Education Act of 2015 (Final vote)

[windjammer]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Sponsor: Talleyrand for Barnes

[Oakvale]

Disclaimer: Not a Senator, please feel free to tell me to go away.

This was a bad law when California passed it in some alternate reality and it's a bad law here, too. As a judge I'm profoundly uneasy with the idea of enshrining as clumsy a principle as "affirmative consent" in law, which I'm convinced would have no measurable positive effect and indeed seems likely to lead to a significant increase in false allegations. Before I get shouted down as some kind of rabid MRA, let me elaborate a little.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It's not apparent to me what this means and how it could be successfully implemented. In its current state it's unclear enough that I fear it would inevitably lead to wrongful convictions on charges of rape in ambiguous circumstances. I would assume Senators do not mean that people would now be expected to robotically ask "May I--" at every step of the way, yet the doubtlessly well-intentioned "...nor do silence mean consent" clause seems to imply just that. What exactly is meant by "ensuring" affirmative consent?

I'm also - and especially - deeply queasy about instituting a preponderance of evidence standard for such cases. False rape allegations are not as common as most of the internet might have you believe, but the number is not negligible either - I would hope that the Senate is wise enough to realise that expelling someone from university, and then possibly sending them to prison and ruining their life because 50.00[...]01% of the evidence arguably points to (ambiguously!) criminal behaviour is a very dangerous line for a society of laws to cross. Unilaterally forcing universities to institute this kind of ill-starred campus activism would be a step in the wrong direction.

[DemPGH]

I'm very dubious about this, but am curious to read the defense of it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So is it advisable that consent be in writing? I'm just reading it to the letter. See, I think when we start talking about standards of evidence we run into problems.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I can't see it working.

[Talleyrand]

I can't see it working.

I tend to agree, but I'm waiting to hear Barnes's advocacy for this first.

[Barnes]

Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to thank Oakvale for his helpful comments at the outset and I'd like to thank other senators for making their views know. However, I cannot allow this issue to simply be swept away with mere indifference and an idea that it "won't work."  This bill is intended to be a starting point for discussion on this issue.

This version is not set in stone nor will I take some recalcitrant position refusing to compromise. I think very simply that we as a nation need to formulate some form of response to sexual assault on college campuses. If honorable senators have other suggestions, this is the time and the place to share them so that we can have a productive and successful collaboration to this issue.

If there are concerns with this version, let's work on them, or replace them with something more effective. Either way, let's make progress and take action.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to thank Oakvale for his helpful comments at the outset and I'd like to thank other senators for making their views know. However, I cannot allow this issue to simply be swept away with mere indifference and an idea that it "won't work."  This bill is intended to be a starting point for discussion on this issue.

This version is not set in stone nor will I take some recalcitrant position refusing to compromise. I think very simply that we as a nation need to formulate some form of response to sexual assault on college campuses. If honorable senators have other suggestions, this is the time and the place to share them so that we can have a productive and successful collaboration to this issue.

If there are concerns with this version, let's work on them, or replace them with something more effective. Either way, let's make progress and take action.

Let me make my position clear, no one is saying this ins't an important or relevant issue.

But we need to make sure that it's something that is reasonable and  workable.

[Barnes]

That's my exact position as well, Senator. And I was not attempting to say that anyone did not take this issue seriously.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Also not a Senator, but I would like to say that the notion of a university acting as the trier of fact in allegations of criminal malfeasance is preposterous. Suppose a rape occurs and the aggressor is suspended or expelled; they are essentially loosing a violent criminal out into the world to strike again.

     Something that I plan to do for my region in my capacity as a Legislator, and I would encourage the Senate to do the same, is to require universities to report all accusations of criminal acts to law enforcement. If someone commits a crime, they should have to face actual criminal penalties.

[windjammer]

I basically agree with my senate colleagues. Good intentions, but definitely unworkable. I don't see how I could vote for this bill.

[Blair]

We need to do something, at the least I'd want to attach funding to the provision that all schools give guidance on the issue and basically approach the issue. Basically section 5

The roadblock appears to be consent, and it's a hard one as many senators have said. Obviously the bill isn't calling for written consent but is trying to codify that for too long we've had the view that rape is only rape if it is committed by a stranger using brute force. We can clean up the first part of the bill, I don't want this to be an issue where the first bill is a bit weak and everyone runs away from the issue. We need legislation to fix this

[TNF]

The biggest problem I have with this bill is the implication that one would literally have to stop at every stage of sexual activity and as "May I x?" which is going to be a nightmare that is almost certainly going to cause more trouble than it's worth in the courts. I am skeptical of this bill for a lot of reasons (the biggest of which being that I don't trust post-secondary institutions to respect the rights of the accused, given their track record in that area) but this is the biggest sticking point, and the one that will cause the biggest headache for the legal community in terms of having to deal with what activities are consensual, false accusations, etc.

I more or less agree with oakvale's analysis, and will probably vote against this bill barring radical re-writing of it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Blair]

I object to the amendment. It implies that for sexual assault to occur than they must be physical resistance

[TNF]

I think the language being struck by my proposed amendment is honestly far more trouble than its worth.

[Barnes]

I would just like to remind the senate that it is a legislative body.  If Senators don't like this proposal, why not amend it or replace it with another idea?  Saying one likes the principle but would rather vote down this bill than work on it seems a little odd to me.

[Cranberry]

Please don't get all too bad on me now for saying this, but is there really, objectively a need for national legislation passed by the Senate on this issue? I obviously, like any sane and decent person, condemn rape and all sorts of horrible things that are mentioned in this bill, but is there really a need for the Senate to set up policies for universities on what exactly their students need to do in order to be allowed to f-ck? Obviously I exaggerate here by loads, but do you get my point? Do we need all this, if I may allow to lend a word that was often used in critics of a recent resolution I sponsored, micromanaging on what exactly is allowed under which terms when it comes to birds and bees?

I wonder here if it were not more effective to instruct universities to do those things themselves, as they will know which problems often arise on their campus and which don't. I don't know what exactly is the best policy here for, let's say, Northwestern Oklahoma Tech, and neither do any of my fellow Senators, but I am convinced that there are certainly different problems and optimal policies to combat these at the Southeastern Alabama Arts College.

I am simply not convinced of the effectivness of the bill as stands, and am not prepared to support it in its current version. In fact, since I am, yes, not convinced of the whole spirit and feeling of the bill, I doubt that I can support it through the occasional "striking here, striking there"...

[Associate Justice PiT]

I object to the amendment. It implies that for sexual assault to occur than they must be physical resistance

     Courts have not held that to be the case for decades. We hardly need a line in a new bill to explicitly deny it.

[Blair]

I object to the amendment. It implies that for sexual assault to occur than they must be physical resistance

     Courts have not held that to be the case for decades. We hardly need a line in a new bill to explicitly deny it.

It's not an issue of courts, its an issue of public perception

[Simfan34]

But this is a lawmaking body, no?

[Associate Justice PiT]

I object to the amendment. It implies that for sexual assault to occur than they must be physical resistance

     Courts have not held that to be the case for decades. We hardly need a line in a new bill to explicitly deny it.

It's not an issue of courts, its an issue of public perception

     So upholding the status quo in this area by remaining mum on it and dealing with the underlying issue through other means creates a perception of launching a reactionist attack on sexual assault victims? I am incredulous.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

     Also not a Senator, but I would like to say that...

This is the people's Senate. Those bastards work for you, there is no need to apologize for speaking your piece on the Senate floor. Senators legislate by voting in accordance with the majority rules, but the people still possess free speech rights and this has always been an open forum, a precedent Windjammer continues to uphold.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

 Something that I plan to do for my region in my capacity as a Legislator,

So far the best words spoken so far in this debate.

1. The proposal itself is unworkable at every level.

2. The primary repository for addressing related matters be it crime reporting or what not should be at the regional level.

[TNF]

Yankee pls go

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

There is a thread in the main page to present views and formal submissions

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yankee pls go

You gonna fetch that guy that can stop me? I beleive he is called Mr. McDoesn'tExist? I don't post on every thread, only those that interest me. Its also not like I am the only candidate of the second largest party in Atlasia for At-Large Senate presently, and thus stand a pretty good chance of being your colleague in three weeks... I cannot wait, Comrade TNF.

There is a thread in the main page to present views and formal submissions

Main Page? The AFE board is not the main page. The AFE board is the board where the elections game aspect of Atlasia is conducted.

The purpose of said thread's creation was to provide a vehicle for greater interest in the Senate's discourse, not to compartmentalize and cast aside the opinions of private citizens to that they can be ignored by the Senate. This place has a long history of being out of touch on a variety of issues, the most recent example being the previous Amendment ratification. Suppressing public interest and input is not in the chamber's best interests.