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  Political Debate (Moderators: Beet, Keyboard Jacobinism, Apocrypha)
  Should Dzhokhar Tsarnaev be put to death for the Boston Massacre?
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Question: Should Tsarnaev get capital punishment for the Boston Massacre
#1Capital Punishment
#2Life in Prison (No Parole)
#3Life in Prison (Parole)
#4Capital Punishment - Lethal Injection
#5Capital Punishment - Gas Chamber
#6Capital Punishment - Electric Chair
#7Capital Punishment - Firing Squad
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Author Topic: Should Dzhokhar Tsarnaev be put to death for the Boston Massacre?  (Read 8042 times)
Beet
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« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2015, 11:29:22 pm »

Life imprisonment, because the class that runs the state has no moral authority to put anyone to death

That's why the state maintains the power to end all life on earth, right? No authority to put anyone to death?
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True Federalist
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« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2015, 12:00:35 am »

If anyone should receive the death penalty, he should. That said, I don't care much which sentence he receives.

Well, a case could be made that a terrorist who kills 100 people should be put to death, but a terrorist who kills "only" 3 people is little different than a non-terrorist who shoots 3 people.
Agreed.  Indeed, the number who died is relevant to me. Killing one with calculated premeditation would be sufficient grounds in my view if we have the death penalty as an option.
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Snowguy716
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« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2015, 01:25:01 am »

Life imprisonment, because the class that runs the state has no moral authority to put anyone to death
Well, your class has no moral authority either.  And your classless ideal precludes moral authority to put anyone to death.

So why word it the way you did, self anointed Saint Just?
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2015, 07:29:43 pm »

I oppose the death penalty in all cases and I believe life in prison without parole would be much harsher punishment...

This seems like a weird position to me, to be honest.  If you actually think that life in prison would be appropriate in this case, *and* you think that it's a "much harsher" penalty than execution, then why wouldn't you support capital punishment for other cases, where the crime isn't quite as severe?  Yet you say that you oppose it "in all cases"?
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ComradeCarter
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« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2015, 08:47:58 pm »

Life in Prison (Parole)

I am beginning to think both capital punishment and life without parole are immoral.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2015, 11:04:36 pm »

Life in Prison (Parole)

I am beginning to think both capital punishment and life without parole are immoral.

Our current system—which amounts to a lottery for poor defendants—is immoral, but the death penalty per se is amoral.  It's all in how it is implemented, tho I'm doubtful that in the current social and political climate of the US that a non-immoral capital punishment system is possible.
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Snowguy716
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2015, 01:09:56 am »
« Edited: April 18, 2015, 01:11:49 am by Snowguy716 »

Life in Prison (Parole)

I am beginning to think both capital punishment and life without parole are immoral.
I agree.  The real loonies can be in looney bins with adequate creature comforts.  The rest are rehabilitated.  

I just think a "life" sentence should be 21 years.  Then off to looneytown or home.  But even that doesn't work.  MN has done the looneytown approach with sex offenders who are deemed extra super dangerous by whichever judge is up for election soon and a prosecutor implored by a concerned mother...and now hundreds of men and one woman are serving de facto life sentences being treated by 'experts' who have never graduated one 'client' in 20 years... All this despite having served their full sentence in prison.  If that's not literal psychological torture, then I don't know what is.

So really we need to have a merciful max sentence or just kill them.  I go for the former.  Freedom and maintaining rights is messy and potentially dangerous.

The other side of the Reagan coin that was never quipped..

"Hi.  I'm from the government, and I'm here to protect you!"
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Hifly
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« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2015, 02:20:28 am »

Life imprisonment with parole. I shudder when I see others advocate revenge justice in the 21st century. Our objective must be rehabilitation; there is no evidence to suggest that this man will be forever incapable of re-integration into society. We're dealing with a human being. We have to look ahead and not hold onto animosity forever because of things that have passed.

For those who advocate the death penalty, just remember that the sword is not mightier than yourself.
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YL
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« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2015, 06:16:35 am »

I agree with Hifly.
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solarstorm
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« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2015, 06:50:21 am »

Capital Punishment - Firing Squad (sane)
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Keyboard Jacobinism
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« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2015, 07:54:02 am »

Capital Punishment - Firing Squad (sane)

I'm kind of surprised of people voting for firing squad in Tsarnaev's case, given that it's transitionally considered an honorable death for military personnel.
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TNF
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« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2015, 10:46:28 am »

Lol

It's funny how much of a liberal bubble Atlas is. I mean, like I said before, I don't support executing him because I don't trust the US government, but it's just really funny to see the opinions here vs. the average person, who would probably not bat an eye at the suggestion that we publicly execute rapists, let alone consider any kind of leniency toward terrorists like Tsarnaev.
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Secret Cavern Survivor
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« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2015, 10:57:54 am »

Lol

It's funny how much of a liberal bubble Atlas is. I mean, like I said before, I don't support executing him because I don't trust the US government, but it's just really funny to see the opinions here vs. the average person, who would probably not bat an eye at the suggestion that we publicly execute rapists, let alone consider any kind of leniency toward terrorists like Tsarnaev.

Who gives a sh*t what the "average person" thinks?
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TNF
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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2015, 11:00:29 am »

Most of us who believe in democracy, I'd wager.
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Secret Cavern Survivor
Antonio V
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« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2015, 11:03:48 am »

Says the guy whose views are further away from the American mainstream than almost everybody on this forum.
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TNF
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« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2015, 11:05:23 am »

Says the guy whose views are further away from the American mainstream than almost everybody on this forum.

I have never denied that. But I think I have a more realistic view of how to take out the trash (hang rapists) than the red avatars saying that mass murderers can be 'reformed'. It doesn't matter if they can be 'reformed'. Some acts warrant nothing less than death.
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Secret Cavern Survivor
Antonio V
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« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2015, 11:14:03 am »

I think I have a more realistic view

Uh... good for you? Do you feel the need to tell everybody about how right you are and how wrong others are?
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2015, 12:50:20 pm »

Life without parole.

There must be no sign of softness against terrorists, who are willing to kill many innocents.

The mere chance that this guy is released after 20 years and plots again and kills again is simply too high a risk.

Better lock them up for good.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2015, 12:59:11 pm »

Life in Prison (Parole)

I am beginning to think both capital punishment and life without parole are immoral.

Yeah exactly, life without parole is certainly "immoral" ... Roll Eyes

80% of people on the planet have a worse life than a murderer in prison in a Western country.

Breivik even wants to play the latest X-box games ... (at least, they didn't allow him - but his prison is basically a 1st class hotel).
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National Progressive
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« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2015, 01:59:44 pm »

Lol

It's funny how much of a liberal bubble Atlas is. I mean, like I said before, I don't support executing him because I don't trust the US government, but it's just really funny to see the opinions here vs. the average person, who would probably not bat an eye at the suggestion that we publicly execute rapists, let alone consider any kind of leniency toward terrorists like Tsarnaev.

Well fwiw, the parents of the kid killed in the bombings have explicitly asked that the death penalty not be given (and I voted yes).
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TDAS04
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« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2015, 05:17:32 pm »

He should get life without parole.
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ComradeCarter
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2015, 07:12:02 pm »

Warning: I intended this to be a short response but quickly began rambling on and on.

Life in Prison (Parole)

I am beginning to think both capital punishment and life without parole are immoral.

Yeah exactly, life without parole is certainly "immoral" ... Roll Eyes

Immoral was probably a poor word choice. I don't have any authority to declare anything about morality. I will say that putting someone in prison without even the possibility of ever getting out doesn't seem to do anything positive.

Without the possibility of parole prisoners are more likely to commit more crimes in prison, having little left to lose.

The possibility of parole may help prevent crime within prison. If their behaviour continues to be negative, obviously they wouldn't be granted parole. But just because their behaviour may be positive, that doesn't mean they would necessarily ever be granted parole. This is important to keep in mind. And the public can rest easy knowing that truly horrible people will likely never be granted parole anyway. In the case of Breivik, I don't think he would ever be granted parole.

I also think it is wise to have another layer of oversight to correct for the overzealous actions of judges who may be campaigning to appear tough on crime (ugh) and juries that dish out ridiculous sentences.

Finally, keep in mind that I love shoes. I like to try on the shoes of the prisoner - I would certainly want to have the possibility of parole available. After all, what if I'm innocent? I need that hope that my life isn't over. The shoes of victims are also worth trying on. If I was killed by a terrorist, serial killer, or someone else, what punishment do I feel evens out the loss of the rest of my life? These shoes are closely related to those of the victim's family, friends, and community. What punishment would make me feel okay about the loss?

Where I arrive after I try on these shoes eventually leads me to believe that it doesn't matter what these people feel, because whatever punishment you choose will never truly satisfy. You cannot quantify someone's life into a number of years in prison. Putting someone else to death or taking away the rest of their life does not undo or equate to the original crime. Unfortunately the only way to make the friends, family, and community feel okay is time and grieving. It feels like it would satisfy them to take away the perpetrator's life, but it inevitably doesn't. No one wins.

What I'm left with is rather cold. It's just the question of what society ought to do with someone who has broken a rule. I think that this is a fairer way to look at things. It's informed by the realities of what happens in prisons. The goal now isn't necessarily rehabilitation as much as simply finding a calculated punishment that fits a crime, with systems in place to correct for any imbalances (such as parole, which also might serve to prevent more crime).

Quote
80% of people on the planet have a worse life than a murderer in prison in a Western country.

Uh, I don't quite get what your point is here. Shall we make prisoner's lives worse so that we feel better about poor people in developing countries? Wouldn't this make more sense as an argument for raising the amount foreign aid we offer? Or perhaps you think we should ship prisoners overseas to dry dusty islands on the ass end of the globe... Wink

Quote
Breivik even wants to play the latest X-box games ... (at least, they didn't allow him - but his prison is basically a 1st class hotel).

You need to understand something about why things like this happen: distracted inmates mean fewer behavioural problems. Bored prisoners make their own entertainment, and when you mix together a toxic brew of personalities, a lot of that entertainment comes at the expense of other people.

I'm sure lots of people wake up every day exhilerated by the unfathomable potential that the freedom to play the latest video games offers.. when they're 14. Prisoners still are stuck in the same building, with the same people, bland food, strict schedule, lack of privacy and agency, and little contact with their loved ones.

I'm not saying you should feel sorry for them and so give them toys to play with. I'm saying that video games mean nothing substantial and make the lives of the prison staff easier.
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Snowguy716
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« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2015, 10:04:49 pm »

Life without parole.

There must be no sign of softness against terrorists, who are willing to kill many innocents.

The mere chance that this guy is released after 20 years and plots again and kills again is simply too high a risk.

Better lock them up for good.
Use the plight of the poor with undeveloped economies as an excuse to punish our prisoners more harshly...while advocating policies that keep the undeveloped economies undeveloped and poor.

In the words of George Carlin:  it's all bullsh**t, folks.  All of it.  And it's bad for you.

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HokeyDood
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« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2015, 03:18:20 pm »

Life in prison (no parole)
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New_Conservative
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« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2015, 01:00:20 pm »

Capital Punishment (Lethal Injection)
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