Brexit; what now?

[ingemann]

How do you people expect the whole negotiation for a new EU deal will go?

Share your wisdom, ignorance or bile, everything are welcome.

[Cubby]

Watching David squirm out of this trap he set himself will put me in a good humour

I hope they don't leave the EU. Maybe UK should have just joined NAFTA like Thatcher wanted. Would have saved us 15 years of whinging (sp?)

[ag]

Watching David squirm out of this trap he set himself will put me in a good humour

I hope they don't leave the EU. Maybe UK should have just joined NAFTA like Thatcher wanted. Would have saved us 15 years of whinging (sp?)

Recall that citizens of NAFTA members need visas if they want to live and/or work in France or Spain (in addition to still needing the visas to live and work in other NAFTA countries).

I suggest, all those Brits in Alicante get themselves informed ASAP.

[ingemann]

Watching David squirm out of this trap he set himself will put me in a good humour

Yes it's going to be very entertaining, I'm curious over whether he has connection enough to reality to make some demand, which won't be laughted out.

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If UK want to leave EU, it's their choice even if it will be a train crash.

[Velasco]

I suggest, all those Brits in Alicante get themselves informed ASAP.

There are municipalities in Alicante where Brits are a large part of their population, and they represent a majority at least in one. EU citizens are eligible to vote in local elections and, as far as I know, Britons sometimes take advantage to exercise their influence.

However, as far as I'm concerned, the UK can leave the EU. The Union is unworkable in its current shape and the model is entirely dysfunctional. I'd go to a two-speed model or something.

[ingemann]

I suggest, all those Brits in Alicante get themselves informed ASAP.

There are municipalities in Alicante where Brits are a large part of their population, and they represent a majority at least in one. EU citizens are eligible to vote in local elections and, as far as I know, Britons sometimes take advantage to exercise their influence.

However, as far as I'm concerned, the UK can leave the EU. The Union is unworkable in its current shape and the model is entirely dysfunctional. I'd go to a two-speed model or something.

EU is already de facto a model with several different speeds.

[Velasco]

EU is already de facto a model with several different speeds.

A failed model. The "two speed" Europe implies some kind of political and economic integration between the countries adopting the fastest speed. The Federal Europe will never take shape. I'd leave this EU if I could. The Big European Ideal is already dead, the Eurozone sucks and I have nothing in common with people driven by petty national interests and prejudice, puritans disguised as fiscal conservatives, xenophobes and similar fauna. The tragedy is that, as an individual, there's no choice for me. Therefore, I'll have to hang on to the good individuals that exist anywhere. As for Europe understood as a group of countries, I have little hope given the dominant trends in public opinion and the political drift of their institutions.

[Ebsy]

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Man, I wish I had your confidence in my predictions of events that could happen a century from now.

[ingemann]

EU is already de facto a model with several different speeds.

A failed model. The "two speed" Europe implies some kind of political and economic integration between the countries adopting the fastest speed. The Federal Europe will never take shape. I'd leave this EU if I could. The Big European Ideal is already dead, the Eurozone sucks and I have nothing in common with people driven by petty national interests and prejudice, puritans disguised as fiscal conservatives, xenophobes and similar fauna. The tragedy is that, as an individual, there's no choice for me. Therefore, I'll have to hang on to the good individuals that exist anywhere. As for Europe understood as a group of countries, I have little hope given the dominant trends in public opinion and the political drift of their institutions.

I too would prefer a EU which was hundred percent after my idea of how it should function, and where no other interest groups had a any say in how it should function and that they would just gracefully accept it.

[Velasco]

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Man, I wish I had your confidence in my predictions of events that could happen a century from now.

Ah well, maybe in a hundred of years. Likely I'll be dead by then, but I predict that Europe will be a Caliphate with capital in Córdoba (Spain). In all seriousness, I think that I won't see the United States of Europe over the course of my life. I might be wrong, but I see a future of decadence and decline in my crystal ball. However, I don't believe in determinism or predestination. Errors can be corrected and fatal drifts can be reversed, providing that  something is done at time. Don't ask me when is the time; my prophecy skills allow for little more.

I too would prefer a EU which was hundred percent after my idea

You didn't get it. I don't reject this Europe because it doesn't fulfill my ideal. It's more that this Europe is on a collision course and its model has damaging effects for people.

[ingemann]

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Man, I wish I had your confidence in my predictions of events that could happen a century from now.

Ah well, maybe in a hundred of years. Likely I'll be dead by then, but I predict that Europe will be a Caliphate with capital in Córdoba (Spain). In all seriousness, I think that I won't see the United States of Europe over the course of my life. I might be wrong, but I see a future of decadence and decline in my crystal ball. However, I don't believe in determinism or predestination. Errors can be corrected and fatal drifts can be reversed, providing that  something is done at time. Don't ask me when is the time; my prophecy skills allow for little more.

I too would prefer a EU which was hundred percent after my idea

You didn't get it. I don't reject this Europe because it doesn't fulfill my ideal. It's more that this Europe is on a collision course and its model has damaging effects for people.

[Peter]

Watching David squirm out of this trap he set himself will put me in a good humour

I hope they don't leave the EU. Maybe UK should have just joined NAFTA like Thatcher wanted. Would have saved us 15 years of whinging (sp?)

I can only hope he will try.

Will be joining the "Stay In" campaign when it inevitably has to get going.

[Velasco]

What's the meaning of that empty quote, ingemann? It's weird, even coming from you.

[ingemann]

What's the meaning of that empty quote, ingemann? It's weird, even coming from you.

It was a indication of how empty I found your statement...

No it was problem with the internet connection (I'm abroad), which deleted my comment.

Of course I did find you comment rather meaningless, there was not really a lot to discuss in a contentless comment about how it's bad that evil mean people hurt poor innocent people. Who will disagree with that?

[Velasco]

Ah well, I was certain that you care little about the "poor innocent people" who is suffering at the hands of "evil mean people". Honestly, I think that you are the least indicated one to qualify a comment as "empty" or whatever, especially when you hadn't a clue about what I was implying. Namely, I have nothing in common with people that I can't help but disrespect. Therefore, further discussion isn't worthwile.

[ingemann]

Ah well, I was certain that you care little about the "poor innocent people" who is suffering at the hands of "evil mean people". Honestly, I think that you are the least indicated one to qualify a comment as "empty" or whatever, especially when you hadn't a clue about what I was talking about. Namely, I have nothing in common with people that I can't help but disrespect. Therefore, further discussion isn't worthwile.

Yes rambling about fiscal puritans (I guess the translation, people who don't wish to impoverish north European pensionists, so that south Europeans can use inflations to hollow out the cheap loans the Euro allowed them to take). It's my problem with all this criticism of EU by some people, that European solidarity should only go one way, monetary transfer to the south,  but the moment anyone dare to ask for sound governance in the south, it's not solidaric. I'm against the European austerity, but south Europe have a no point delivered something which could be used against the "austerists" in the north, and it's really hard to talk against austerity, when the alternate solution you set up, include throwing an entire generation of north European pensionists into deep poverty, to clean up something which is (fairly or unfairly) fundamental seen as your mess.

[Velasco]

Firstly, you are not entitled to qualify anyone's comments as "ramblings": you don't measure up. Secondly, I'm within my rights complaining about models or policies that are ruining many people's lives (even hyperbolically). Thirdly, I didn't mention the lack of solidarity toward the south. If you care to read, you'll find that I made a generic complain about what I regard a failed model. You would do much better in not attributing me simplistic arguments such as "give me money, you're mean and stingy".

In what regards "fiscal puritanism" and certain model that is being imposed through Europe (my country could serve as an example), adverse effects are not only perceived in the South (I'm certain that you believe that we are all a bunch of lazy people, but I couldn't care less). You should check the DIW reports on the situation of labour market in Germany, for instance. Current growth there is based on the creation of many precarious and part-time jobs. There's an increasing share of people needing more than one job to get a living wage, as well of people depending on social services. Inequality indexes are rising. Germany has rather bad demographic prospects and, apparently, the motivation of "puritan" policies is saving money to face a future where growth will tend to zero. However, that's not a policy good for young people, although it helps to win pensioners' votes. Needless to say that it's not good for Europe and the rest of the world. An expression that I've read several times is that German "puritans" live in an "intellectual bubble".  Trust me, I'm not the only one who complains on the excesses of restrictive fiscal policies. IMF, G-20 and other European governments do.

[Velasco]

when the alternate solution you set up, include throwing an entire generation of north European pensionists into deep poverty, to clean up something which is (fairly or unfairly) fundamental seen as your mess.

I'm curious to know what "alternate solution" I was setting up and why do you think I hate German or Scandinavian pensioners so much. "Falling into deep poverty": how dramatic! Seriously, you are derailing. Of course, the fact that you see the hardships faced by other European countries as our "mess" is an essential part of the problem. Europe was built up on the idea of interregional solidarity. Your statement only shows that I'm right in saying that the idea of Europe is dead. If you don't mind, don't attribute me in your following post that I'm discharging the different national governments of liability. 

[ag]

I suggest, all those Brits in Alicante get themselves informed ASAP.

There are municipalities in Alicante where Brits are a large part of their population, and they represent a majority at least in one. EU citizens are eligible to vote in local elections and, as far as I know, Britons sometimes take advantage to exercise their influence.

However, as far as I'm concerned, the UK can leave the EU. The Union is unworkable in its current shape and the model is entirely dysfunctional. I'd go to a two-speed model or something.

I presume, you will then have those Alicante Brits deported, as "non-comunitarios"?

[Cubby]

Since UKIP did far worse than many predicted, was it foolish for Cameron to have suggested this referendum in the first place?

[Velasco]

I presume, you will then have those Alicante Brits deported, as "non-comunitarios"?

I have met several retired Brits living here and, as a general rule, they are kind and polite people. Right now I have a neighbour born in Jerusalem, he's so old that by then the city belonged to the Palestinian mandate and is a Brit citizen. Why should I want to get them deported? Another question are the hooligan hordes flooding places like Salou or Magaluf, next to Palma de Mallorca. They are not residents, just vandals visiting us for a few days for binge drinking.

[ObserverIE]

Since UKIP did far worse than many predicted, was it foolish for Cameron to have suggested this referendum in the first place?

He has a large batsh:t insane Europhobic Euroskeptic presence on his own backbenches.

[ag]

I presume, you will then have those Alicante Brits deported, as "non-comunitarios"?

I have met several retired Brits living here and, as a general rule, they are kind and polite people. Right now I have a neighbour born in Jerusalem, he's so old that by then the city belonged to the Palestinian mandate and is a Brit citizen. Why should I want to get them deported? Another question are the hooligan hordes flooding places like Salou or Magaluf, next to Palma de Mallorca. They are not residents, just vandals visiting us for a few days for binge drinking.

What would be the grounds for having these non-comunitarios live in Spain?

[Velasco]

What would be the grounds for having these non-comunitarios live in Spain?

I would leave legal affairs to the Spanish and British governments . I ignore if there's legal ground to negotiate a solution different from deportation and if the EU would allow it.  It's possible that it won't be an easy task for the British administration letting their connationals in the wayside (another question is if the government really cares). Honestly, I'd feel pity on the residents in Spain if that occurs. That outcome would be attributable to the irresponsibility of their government, if that's where you want to go. On the other hand, if Euroescepticism is so strong there (and I'm far from sympathising with it) what can be done about it? How to sell the idea of Europe and convince them that staying is good and necessary, aside from advising them of the possible adverse consequences?