Opinion of Alexis Tsipras

[Antonio the Sixth]

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that.

This is patently false. All the accounts I have heard of the talks (coming from mainstream media sources, not some random leftist hackblog) pointed out that the creditors had asked for very specific reforms. The IMF in particular was hellbent on imposing cuts to pensions.

Juncker has explicitly stated that he was fine with cutting the military instead.

What they did not want were the measures they did not believe would achieve the goals.

Anyway, the goals were, probably, politically unfeasible.

Maybe Juncker said so, but the IMF never dropped their demands. In fact, I heard at some point that Greece wanted the IMF out of the negotiation and sought to strike a deal with the more cooperative EC and Central Bank, but the latter refused.

[ag]

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that.

This is patently false. All the accounts I have heard of the talks (coming from mainstream media sources, not some random leftist hackblog) pointed out that the creditors had asked for very specific reforms. The IMF in particular was hellbent on imposing cuts to pensions.

Juncker has explicitly stated that he was fine with cutting the military instead.

What they did not want were the measures they did not believe would achieve the goals.

Anyway, the goals were, probably, politically unfeasible.

Maybe Juncker said so, but the IMF never dropped their demands. In fact, I heard at some point that Greece wanted the IMF out of the negotiation and sought to strike a deal with the more cooperative EC and Central Bank, but the latter refused.

It is pretty obvious that there the European negotiators have not much trust in the current Greek government. Anyway, there is no evidence that the Greeks even considered cutting the military. And, according to Juncker, they went out of their way to misinform the public about the negotiations.

[ingemann]

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that.

This is patently false. All the accounts I have heard of the talks (coming from mainstream media sources, not some random leftist hackblog) pointed out that the creditors had asked for very specific reforms. The IMF in particular was hellbent on imposing cuts to pensions.

Juncker has explicitly stated that he was fine with cutting the military instead.

What they did not want were the measures they did not believe would achieve the goals.

Anyway, the goals were, probably, politically unfeasible.

Maybe Juncker said so, but the IMF never dropped their demands. In fact, I heard at some point that Greece wanted the IMF out of the negotiation and sought to strike a deal with the more cooperative EC and Central Bank, but the latter refused.

It is pretty obvious that there the European negotiators have not much trust in the current Greek government. Anyway, there is no evidence that the Greeks even considered cutting the military. And, according to Juncker, they went out of their way to misinform the public about the negotiations.

I read this

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http://www.econotimes.com/Greece-going-for-referendum-more-questions-arise-54982

If it's true I get why they don't trust the Greek government. After what I have read, the negotiation have been a nightmare, they have said one thing in Brussel and another in Brussel. The Greek government hav few friends left in the rest of EU, and this may simply be the last straw.

[Simfan34]

It is curious that Antonio is now defending the Greek government position more than an actual Greek. And Lyndon is hardly someone who's tolerated the characterization of "lazy profligate Greeks" people make.

[Mehmentum]

I've been generally sympathetic to the Greek plight, but this is pretty reckless behavior by Tsipras.  I think that the referendum is a good idea in principle, but pulling out of negotiations and springing this on everyone like this is highly irresponsible.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that.

This is patently false. All the accounts I have heard of the talks (coming from mainstream media sources, not some random leftist hackblog) pointed out that the creditors had asked for very specific reforms. The IMF in particular was hellbent on imposing cuts to pensions.

Allow me to know better. One of the grudges of the pro-reform and pro-EU camp here in Greece is that troika never insisted on pushing the Greek government into more reforms and less taxes.

As for the pensions, what they asked from us is to cut the pensions above 2000 euros and those of people under 60 years old (mainly civil servants who got some sweet deals from previous governments and retired at ages 45-50) in order for our system to remain solvent.

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that.

This is patently false. All the accounts I have heard of the talks (coming from mainstream media sources, not some random leftist hackblog) pointed out that the creditors had asked for very specific reforms. The IMF in particular was hellbent on imposing cuts to pensions.

Juncker has explicitly stated that he was fine with cutting the military instead.

What they did not want were the measures they did not believe would achieve the goals.

Anyway, the goals were, probably, politically unfeasible.

Maybe Juncker said so, but the IMF never dropped their demands. In fact, I heard at some point that Greece wanted the IMF out of the negotiation and sought to strike a deal with the more cooperative EC and Central Bank, but the latter refused.

Kammenos, our Min. of Defence, said explicitly today that it was our government who refused to cut military spending, supposedly because we'd compromise our ability to defend against Turkey.
That's totally BS of course since he spares no cost when it comes to organizing military parades (which where abolished by the previous government to save money) and photo-ops of himself at various Aegean islands and military outposts.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I've been generally sympathetic to the Greek plight, but this is pretty reckless behavior by Tsipras.  I think that the referendum is a good idea in principle, but pulling out of negotiations and springing this on everyone like this is highly irresponsible.

Most people in the pro-European camp realize now that Tsipras's plan all along was to waste time with a sham negotiation until the last minute, then denounce them for being unreasonable and use the subsequent turmoil as an excuse to leave Eurozone and return to drachma.

Let's face it, these people are far-left ideologues, real ones, not like those imagined by Republicans. Most of them were members of Communist Party for many years. They never liked Greece's participation in the EU, let alone the Eurozone. They now have the chance of their lifetimes to transform Greece into Venezuela, and they aren't afraid to divide the Greek people into patriots and traitors in order to succeed.

[Beet]

It's unfortunate that the EU is what it is, when in theory it should have been something radically leftist. The idea of transcending a nationalism that did so much damage in Europe remains a beautiful idea to me, it's too bad it can't be implemented.

[Velasco]

Yes, it's very very unfortunate.

[Silent Hunter]

I've been generally sympathetic to the Greek plight, but this is pretty reckless behavior by Tsipras.  I think that the referendum is a good idea in principle, but pulling out of negotiations and springing this on everyone like this is highly irresponsible.

Most people in the pro-European camp realize now that Tsipras's plan all along was to waste time with a sham negotiation until the last minute, then denounce them for being unreasonable and use the subsequent turmoil as an excuse to leave Eurozone and return to drachma.

I'd imagine that many of the creditors were rather annoyed that they had to learn about the referendum plan on Twitter.

ECB is expected to end emergency lending to Greek banks today according to BBC sources.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I've been generally sympathetic to the Greek plight, but this is pretty reckless behavior by Tsipras.  I think that the referendum is a good idea in principle, but pulling out of negotiations and springing this on everyone like this is highly irresponsible.

Most people in the pro-European camp realize now that Tsipras's plan all along was to waste time with a sham negotiation until the last minute, then denounce them for being unreasonable and use the subsequent turmoil as an excuse to leave Eurozone and return to drachma.

I'd imagine that many of the creditors were rather annoyed that they had to learn about the referendum plan on Twitter.

ECB is expected to end emergency lending to Greek banks today according to BBC sources.

Even the Greek negotiators learned about the referendum from twitter and while they were negotiating a compromise until that moment.
This is amateur hour and unfortunately it's our country's fate that's on stake.

[ag]

I have been avoiding to vote here, but after the last couple of days there is no doubt: Tsipras is a horrible disaster for Greece.

[ag]

It's unfortunate that the EU is what it is, when in theory it should have been something radically leftist. The idea of transcending a nationalism that did so much damage in Europe remains a beautiful idea to me, it's too bad it can't be implemented.

A radically leftist EU of 3 or 4 countries, you mean?

[ag]

It's unfortunate that the EU is what it is, when in theory it should have been something radically leftist. The idea of transcending a nationalism that did so much damage in Europe remains a beautiful idea to me, it's too bad it can't be implemented.

In any case. it is Greek nationalism that is forcing Greece out of the Union now. Other countries in trouble have been able to supress their national pride and play by the common rules.

[Velasco]

It's unfortunate that the EU is what it is, when in theory it should have been something radically leftist. The idea of transcending a nationalism that did so much damage in Europe remains a beautiful idea to me, it's too bad it can't be implemented.

A radically leftist EU of 3 or 4 countries, you mean?

Is the already dead foundational spirit radically leftist? In that case, I'd go for it . If anyone considers that the current disfunctional dystopia is what the founding fathers had in mind, that cannot be taken seriously.

[Hnv1]

As I don't know Greek society all that well I'm gonna ask what might be slightly dumb question: in face of Euro exit and political turmoil how likely is the circumstance of the armed forces (with some right wing elements taking over? how strong is the military in Greek society nowadays?