Once more, gun control opponents...

[ag]

Perhaps instead of making classes mandatory for new buyers, incentivize the States to replace gym classes with actually useful skills like shooting and other such things

We had it in Soviet Russia. Mandatory shooting classes at school. And military camp on top of that. Mercifully, my dad is a doctor, so he wrote that I had syphilis, or schizophrenia, or something equally useful, and they did not take me. But the one time I had to go, they disqualified the guy at the shooting range next to me: he had more bullet holes than bullets. Of course, my own target was entirely hole free: it was, probably, the only place in the general direction I did not actually hit.

My biggest nightmare, though, was assembling and disassembling AK-47. It has that nasty little compartment in the butt for cleaning equipment (brushes, etc. - whatever gun owners use to clean their pets). My finger would always get stuck in it, and it was horridly painful. To get a C one was supposed to do the whole thing in smthg like 45 seconds - I never could manage to get my finger out of their in less than 5 minutes - always had fear I would have to take the gun and the finger to the nurse to get it amputated.

Anyway, happy to see you find the Soviet example worth emulating.

[ag]

You can talk about trying to change people's hearts and minds on an issue all you like -the crux of the matter is that for decades we have been conditioned to think that if government cannot be trusted to spend our tax dollars responsibly, how can we trust it (in the form of law enforcement and gun regulations) to protect us?  The issues may seem separate, but they are not.  It is no coincidence that the highest spike for gun control (and even a gun ban) was during the 1950s when trust in government was at its highest.  

Until you deal with that underlying distrust of government, any push for gun control (and other liberal/progressive objectives) won't get anywhere on a lasting basis.  

I agree there is a problem, but how exactly do you figure we deal with that distrust in government?

Actually, the minorities both distrust the government and like gun control. Because they know that, second amendment or not, a black guy with a gun is "THAT BLACK GUY HAS A GUN!" - an invitation to be murdered on sight. White people in the US pretend they distrust the government: really, they trust it a lot. This is why they like guns: it lets them pretend they are freedom fighters, while, at the same time, knowing full well, the government will protect both them, and their right to bear arms.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Can't we all agree that it will be largely impossible to restrict gun ownership and there are probably better things to spend political capital on; while simultaneously agreeing that if you own guns you're probably a creepy psycho?

[dead0man]

It's good to see the gun control side hasn't started using insults to people that disagree with them.  I know it can be hard not to what with the facts and such not being on your side.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

It's good to see the gun control side hasn't started using insults to people that disagree with them.  I know it can be hard not to what with the facts and such not being on your side.

Whatever. I don't  really care about the "debate" and dont think gun control will be at all useful in the US, but that doesn't mean I have to think that people who own guns in the developed world (and aren't a farmer) are sane, well-adjusted people.

[Türkisblau]

It's good to see the gun control side hasn't started using insults to people that disagree with them.  I know it can be hard not to what with the facts and such not being on your side.

Whatever. I don't  really care about the "debate" and dont think gun control will be at all useful in the US, but that doesn't mean I have to think that people who own guns in the developed world (and aren't a farmer) are sane, well-adjusted people.

As someone who was raised around guns and was taught at an early age how to use one, I don't understand your contempt of gun owners. Guess it's just another symptom of the Culture War?

[dead0man]

It's good to see the gun control side hasn't started using insults to people that disagree with them.  I know it can be hard not to what with the facts and such not being on your side.

Whatever. I don't  really care about the "debate" and dont think gun control will be at all useful in the US, but that doesn't mean I have to think that people who own guns in the developed world (and aren't a farmer) are sane, well-adjusted people.

Do you actually know anybody that owns a gun?  Is he/she a "creepy psycho"?  I know lots of people with guns, and only a small percentage are creepy psychos.

Though I do understand the desire to demonize people with hobbies you don't understand....wait no, I don't.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

It's good to see the gun control side hasn't started using insults to people that disagree with them.  I know it can be hard not to what with the facts and such not being on your side.

Whatever. I don't  really care about the "debate" and dont think gun control will be at all useful in the US, but that doesn't mean I have to think that people who own guns in the developed world (and aren't a farmer) are sane, well-adjusted people.

Do you actually know anybody that owns a gun?  Is he/she a "creepy psycho"?  I know lots of people with guns, and only a small percentage are creepy psychos.

Though I do understand the desire to demonize people with hobbies you don't understand....wait no, I don't.

No, I don't live in the countryside.

[DC Al Fine]

It's good to see the gun control side hasn't started using insults to people that disagree with them.  I know it can be hard not to what with the facts and such not being on your side.

Whatever. I don't  really care about the "debate" and dont think gun control will be at all useful in the US, but that doesn't mean I have to think that people who own guns in the developed world (and aren't a farmer) are sane, well-adjusted people.

"Well-adjusted" isn't a word we should be throwing around given that our hobby is studying obscure election results.

[Frodo]

Can't we all agree that it will be largely impossible to restrict gun ownership and there are probably better things to spend political capital on; while simultaneously agreeing that if you own guns you're probably a creepy psycho?

.........

You are ignorant. I know plenty of gun owners, and none fit your stereotype.  

[politicallefty]

I don't think any certain gun control measure was going to stop this specific massacre from happening, but I do think it's in part a product of the gun culture in this country. In other words, so long as the United States remains "the gun country", this is going to continue to happen. This is the price to pay for that. These constant and never-ending mass shootings are the ultimate product of that status and it will continue to be so unless there's some enormous paradigm shift that I cannot foresee.

If Newtown wasn't enough to even pass the least restrictive and most popular gun control measures, I don't see whatever will be. I could say what I really would like in terms of reforming gun laws, but that's not the point. All I was really hoping and pushing for was a universal background check, magazine-round limits, and a new Assault Weapons Ban (all of which I do believe are quite popular amongst the public). We couldn't even get universal background checks passed, despite polling at over 90%.

Unfortunately, this just isn't an issue where I hold any hope at all for any common sense to prevail. Those on the right can take glee out of that, but you should know that my issue is not with those that have guns for hunting or those that may want to have a gun stowed away for home defense. It's the fetishization of guns and the whole gun culture that is the problem. It shouldn't be a normal thing to just run down to the store to buy a handgun or whatever. The gun culture is what ultimately needs to go and I don't see any law that can do that. Gun ownership should be considered a very serious responsibility, not a sport or a game or anything of that sort.

[bedstuy]

Ultimately, I would like a system where you need a specific reason to own a gun. 

So, if you're a hunter, you can own a rifle to go hunting.  If you're a target shooter, you can own a rifle or shotgun for target shooting.  If you're an antique gun collector, you can own antique guns. 

However, I wouldn't allow just anyone to own a gun for self-defense.  You should either have to be a law enforcement officer or have a compelling reason and pass a series of tests and background checks.

That seems like a sensible system.

[Iosif]

Ban all guns. Just like the rest of the world.

The American fixation with guns is weird.

[Likely Voter]

RE: polls

Polling on generic terms like 'gun freedom' and 'gun control' are like 'pro life' and 'pro choice' in that they are interesting to see general attitudes, but are not indicative of support of specific policies.

For example, latest Quinni poll asked

"Do you support or oppose stricter gun control laws in the United States?"
Support: 50
Oppose: 47

but then they ask a specific policy question and get a very different answer...

"Do you support or oppose requiring background checks for all gun buyers?"
Support: 92
Oppose: 7

...and yet Congress defeated a measure to extend background checks to private sales and gun shows, with only 7% support for that position


Just look through the polling http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

Over and over the public (and often even Republicans) support the actual gun policies that are routinely rejected by various legislatures.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Black communities should arm themselves and train together to fight both fascist cops and sociopathic Nazi freaks like the Charleston kid.

[WVdemocrat]

RE: polls

Polling on generic terms like 'gun freedom' and 'gun control' are like 'pro life' and 'pro choice' in that they are interesting to see general attitudes, but are not indicative of support of specific policies.

For example, latest Quinni poll asked

"Do you support or oppose stricter gun control laws in the United States?"
Support: 50
Oppose: 47

but then they ask a specific policy question and get a very different answer...

"Do you support or oppose requiring background checks for all gun buyers?"
Support: 92
Oppose: 7

...and yet Congress defeated a measure to extend background checks to private sales and gun shows, with only 7% support for that position


Just look through the polling http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

Over and over the public (and often even Republicans) support the actual gun policies that are routinely rejected by various legislatures.

It really is discouraging to know that despite public opinion, despite these recurring massacres, despite people being cut down in churches and schools, that nothing will get done over this because of the gun nuts and the NRA.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Well, I'll never get back the time I wasted reading 5 pages of this moronic, blood-dancing crap.
Allow me to explain this issue in nice, short sentences.

Humans have an inherent right to self-defense.
Americans have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
You must amend the Constitution to change that.
There are 300 Million guns in private hands.
You will never find them all.
You will never take them all.
If you try, many otherwise peaceful gun owners will shoot back and you will lose.
Making it a bit more inconvenient to legally obtain guns will not reduce violent crime.
As long as the military has guns, the people should have guns.
As long as the Police have guns, the people should have guns.
As long as criminals have guns, the people should have guns.
Anyone who would prevent a woman from shooting an attempted rapist is evil.
Anyone who would prevent a mother from shooting a criminal attacking her child is evil.
Anyone who would ban guns even though there is no right to police protection is evil.
Blaming the already illegal crimes of murder, rape, and robbery on a lack of gun control is stupid.
Gun control is not about preventing violence, as it may only be enforced by violence.
And anyone who says all gunowners are bad is a moron.

Seriously, is there literally ANY issue that lefties won't play the "Childrenz will DIE!" card on to try and overcome their lack of support. I mean, Gun Control, Global Warming, Medicaid Expansion, Abortion restrictions, taxation, ... Midnight Basketball for Christ's sake. OMG think of Teh Childrenz! Agree with muh position or teh childrenz will DIE in teh streets. Never mind the long-term drop in gun crime. How about we think of the rights of individuals? If a single mother has no gun when a rapist serial killer breaks into her house, odds are children will die as well. You don't get to monopolize that argument. Until you somehow eliminate violence generally, gun control is pointless.

[WVdemocrat]

Well, I'll never get back the time I wasted reading 5 pages of this moronic, blood-dancing crap.
Allow me to explain this issue in nice, short sentences.

Humans have an inherent right to self-defense.
Americans have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
You must amend the Constitution to change that.
There are 300 Million guns in private hands.
You will never find them all.
You will never take them all.
If you try, many otherwise peaceful gun owners will shoot back and you will lose.
Making it a bit more inconvenient to legally obtain guns will not reduce violent crime.
As long as the military has guns, the people should have guns.
As long as the Police have guns, the people should have guns.
As long as criminals have guns, the people should have guns.
Anyone who would prevent a woman from shooting an attempted rapist is evil.
Anyone who would prevent a mother from shooting a criminal attacking her child is evil.
Anyone who would ban guns even though there is no right to police protection is evil.
Blaming the already illegal crimes of murder, rape, and robbery on a lack of gun control is stupid.
Gun control is not about preventing violence, as it may only be enforced by violence.
And anyone who says all gunowners are bad is a moron.

Seriously, is there literally ANY issue that lefties won't play the "Childrenz will DIE!" card on to try and overcome their lack of support. I mean, Gun Control, Global Warming, Medicaid Expansion, Abortion restrictions, taxation, ... Midnight Basketball for Christ's sake. OMG think of Teh Childrenz! Agree with muh position or teh childrenz will DIE in teh streets. Never mind the long-term drop in gun crime. How about we think of the rights of individuals? If a single mother has no gun when a rapist serial killer breaks into her house, odds are children will die as well. You don't get to monopolize that argument. Until you somehow eliminate violence generally, gun control is pointless.

As I have made clear, I support allowing people to own guns for home defense and for hunting and for collecting and for whatever other reasons they want, I just want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, the mentally ill, and people who go and shoot up churches or shoot up schools or malls. I can't believe you libertarians are so willing to stick to rigid ideology when people are dying. For god's sake, have a heart. And you know what? Children will die. I'd love for you to go tell all of the parents of the little children who were cut down in Newtown how you believe that America should have zero gun control whatsoever (which clearly seems to be your stance).

Anyway, I'm not going to debate this with you. Free Bird was reasonable. He is willing to discuss it. You are not. You are close-minded and will stick to your rigid, anti-government, anarchistic ideology even when people are being cut down in churches.

[MaxQue]

What is needed if than gun control people organize in a organisation which is efficient and ruthless the way than the NRA.

[Free Bird]

Ban all guns. Just like the rest of the world.

The American fixation with guns is weird.

Yeah!  the Second Amendment and the spirit this country was founded upon! Banning something will make them all go away! Ask the drug cartels!

[Mr. Reactionary]

As I have made clear, I support allowing people (how benevolent of you) to own guns for home defense and for hunting and for collecting and for whatever other reasons they want be free from warrantless searches, I just want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, the mentally ill, and people who go and shoot up churches or shoot up schools or malls stop terrorists. I can't believe you libertarians are so willing to stick to rigid ideology when people are dying. For God's sake, have a heart. And you know what? Children will die. I'd love for you to go tell all of the parents of the little children who were cut down in Newtown widows of 9/11 first-responders how you believe that America should have zero gun control PATRIOT Act whatsoever (which clearly seems to be your stance).

Anyway, I'm not going to debate this with you. Free Bird was reasonable. He is willing to discuss it. You are I am not. You are I am close-minded and will stick to your my rigid, anti-government individual rights, anarchistic statist ideology even when people are being cut down in churches 9/11!!!!!!

[WVdemocrat]

As I have made clear, I support allowing people (how benevolent of you) to own guns for home defense and for hunting and for collecting and for whatever other reasons they want be free from warrantless searches, I just want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, the mentally ill, and people who go and shoot up churches or shoot up schools or malls stop terrorists. I can't believe you libertarians are so willing to stick to rigid ideology when people are dying. For God's sake, have a heart. And you know what? Children will die. I'd love for you to go tell all of the parents of the little children who were cut down in Newtown widows of 9/11 first-responders how you believe that America should have zero gun control PATRIOT Act whatsoever (which clearly seems to be your stance).

Anyway, I'm not going to debate this with you. Free Bird was reasonable. He is willing to discuss it. You are I am not. You are I am close-minded and will stick to your my rigid, anti-government individual rights, anarchistic statist ideology even when people are being cut down in churches 9/11!!!!!!

This was a weird post.

You accuse me of being overly statist when you advocate the PATRIOT Act? Seriously?

[Mr. Reactionary]

As I have made clear, I support allowing people to own guns for home defense and for hunting and for collecting and for whatever other reasons they want,

A repeal (or MAJOR change) to the second amendment is required to cease and reverse this dangerous proliferation.

Ban all guns. Just like the rest of the world.

However, I wouldn't allow just anyone to own a gun for self-defense.  You should either have to be a law enforcement officer or have a compelling reason and pass a series of tests and background checks.

[Mr. Reactionary]

This was a weird post.

You accuse me of being overly statist when you advocate the PATRIOT Act? Seriously?

Lolz ... I was being tongue in cheek which is why I edited YOUR quote as opposed to typing out my own. I was attempting to point out that the argument you made is the exact same spiel Rudy Giuliani and other Republicans used to justify violating the 4th Amendment. The only difference here is that you think muh gunz is different.

As an aside I don't want you to think Im harboring ill feelings towards you ... but I do get irked when people pretend that rights are merely an allowance of the government that can be ignored at will just because blood dancers appear to love to exploit dead children for political capital. The 2nd Amendment is every bit as much of the Bill of Rights as the 4th.

[WVdemocrat]

This was a weird post.

You accuse me of being overly statist when you advocate the PATRIOT Act? Seriously?

Lolz ... I was being tongue in cheek which is why I edited YOUR quote as opposed to typing out my own. I was attempting to point out that the argument you made is the exact same spiel Rudy Giuliani and other Republicans used to justify violating the 4th Amendment.

Lol, sorry. It's hard to discern tone through the computer. You can't see the expression on someone's face to make it clear they're not being serious.

The only difference here is that you think muh gunz is different.

As an aside I don't want you to think Im harboring ill feelings towards you ... but I do get irked when people pretend that rights are merely an allowance of the government that can be ignored at will just because blood dancers appear to love to exploit dead children for political capital. The 2nd Amendment is every bit as much of the Bill of Rights as the 4th.

Of course, but I think gun ownership should be a privilege reserved for those who are responsible. Guns are very powerful tools and they should be used with great caution. I think we need to have reasonable regulations to prevent the wrong kind of people from getting a gun. I support the 2nd Amendment just as much as the next guy, but when shootings like this continue to occur, it becomes clear we need to act.

And BTW I know you don't harbor ill feelings, but I get irked when people seem to not want to take action on this.