Once more, gun control opponents...
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bedstuy
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« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2015, 11:55:22 PM »

Just to add another data point:

Recent WaPo article:
Guns in America: For every criminal killed in self-defense, 34 innocent people die
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Free Bird
TheHawk
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« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2015, 11:56:30 PM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.
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Frodo
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« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2015, 11:58:40 PM »


So you suggest we violate the Second Amendment, confiscate all weapons, and make people completely defenseless from threats?

I never said that. I don't support confiscating all guns and rolling back the Second Amendment. But, what should be added to the Bill of Rights is the right to living in a safe community. There are people shooting up malls and schools and churches. People are dying, and you're sticking to rigid ideology. We can't play political football with this anymore, people are being cut down in churches. In schools, small children are being killed in droves.

This is lunacy. It needs to stop.

This thread badly needs some context:



If you'll notice, the steep decline begins in 1994, when (surprise, surprise) the Assault Weapons Ban was signed into law.

Or, more importantly, the Brady Crime Bill went into effect in 1994.

Coupled with declining exposure of children to lead-poisoning and an ageing population. 
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bedstuy
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« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2015, 12:04:53 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Off the top of my head.

Close the loopholes to make sure all non-antique guns are purchased with a background check.

Gun-buyback programs in inner-cities

Create new penalties and regulations on straw purchases.

Civil Liability for straw purchasers and/or improperly selling a gun used in a crime.

An excise tax on firearms to pay for gun-buybacks, community policing and other crime prevention programs.

Repeal DC v. Heller
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Frodo
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« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2015, 12:06:51 AM »

Also, politicians pay close attention to their constituents.  If we see a repeat of this in coming weeks:



there is no point in pushing for gun control.  Let alone amending the Second Amendment.    
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Free Bird
TheHawk
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« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2015, 12:08:07 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Off the top of my head.

Close the loopholes to make sure all non-antique guns are purchased with a background check.

Gun-buyback programs in inner-cities

Create new penalties and regulations on straw purchases.

Civil Liability for straw purchasers and/or improperly selling a gun used in a crime.

An excise tax on firearms to pay for gun-buybacks, community policing and other crime prevention programs.

Repeal DC v. Heller

All but the last are completely reasonable. They don't infringe on the right of the people to bear arms
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2015, 12:08:13 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Everything bedstuy just said, plus....

-Expand background checks
-Mental health exams
-Re-instate the Assault Weapons Ban
-Invest in smart gun technology
-Require gun training classes for first time gun purchasers
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2015, 12:10:10 AM »

Also, politicians pay close attention to their constituents.  If we see a repeat of this in coming weeks:



there is no point in pushing for gun control.  Let alone amending the Second Amendment.    


There is a point in pushing for gun control as long as people continue to die on this scale from gun violence. We must act. Enough with this libertarian nonsense about fearing tyranny from the government. This isn't tyranny, this is public safety.

BTW that graph shows a very small spike after Newtown. If that's what your point was.
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Frodo
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« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2015, 12:12:38 AM »
« Edited: June 20, 2015, 12:31:04 AM by Frodo »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Off the top of my head.

Close the loopholes to make sure all non-antique guns are purchased with a background check.

Gun-buyback programs in inner-cities

Create new penalties and regulations on straw purchases.

Civil Liability for straw purchasers and/or improperly selling a gun used in a crime.

An excise tax on firearms to pay for gun-buybacks, community policing and other crime prevention programs.

Repeal DC v. Heller


Everything bedstuy just said, plus....

-Expand background checks
-Mental health exams
-Re-instate the Assault Weapons Ban
-Invest in smart gun technology
-Require gun training classes for first time gun purchasers

With the notable exceptions of reinstating the Assault Weapons Ban, and overturning the DC vs. Heller court ruling (which I would never stand for), all these sound perfectly reasonable.  
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Free Bird
TheHawk
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« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2015, 12:12:57 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Everything bedstuy just said, plus....

-Expand background checks
-Mental health exams
-Re-instate the Assault Weapons Ban
-Invest in smart gun technology
-Require gun training classes for first time gun purchasers

1. Sure
2. First time purchasers in a high crime area only
3. Didn't work the first time. Real assault weapons have been banned for over 80 years now! There's no legally binding term for assault weapon, only an arbitrary list of weapons that look scary
4. Subsidize all you want, nobody wants them
5. Seems like a waste of resources considering criminals that are prone to crime won't attend them after obtaining their weapon illegally.
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dead0man
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« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2015, 12:13:11 AM »

Close the loopholes to make sure all non-antique guns are purchased with a background check.
The racist the other day passed a background check despite being convicted of a felony.  I'm not against background checks though.
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meh
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YES, a thousand times YES.  So many on your side forget the straw purchases angle.
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yes
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I'm against that, but could be willing to compromise a little (assuming your side would too).
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HA, no.
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2015, 12:20:44 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Everything bedstuy just said, plus....

-Expand background checks
-Mental health exams
-Re-instate the Assault Weapons Ban
-Invest in smart gun technology
-Require gun training classes for first time gun purchasers

1. Sure
2. First time purchasers in a high crime area only
3. Didn't work the first time. Real assault weapons have been banned for over 80 years now! There's no legally binding term for assault weapon, only an arbitrary list of weapons that look scary
4. Subsidize all you want, nobody wants them
5. Seems like a waste of resources considering criminals that are prone to crime won't attend them after obtaining their weapon illegally.

2) I would not stop there at all. You assume that all people who commit crime are mentally ill. I guarantee you rival gang members in inner cities don't shoot each other up because they're mentally ill.
3) They have no place in America. They belong on the battlefield, not in our communities.
4) I should have clarified: make them mandatory.
5) Then law enforcement will deal with them accordingly. Training classes are about preventing people who legally purchase guns from accidentally shooting their eye out or accidentally shooting someone else.
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ag
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« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2015, 12:22:46 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Just to make sure: I am not proposing anything in terms of gun laws. As far as I am concerned, you and your family can shoot each other to your soul's satisfaction. Just do not get anywhere near me, please.
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Frodo
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« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2015, 12:24:25 AM »

Also, politicians pay close attention to their constituents.  If we see a repeat of this in coming weeks:



there is no point in pushing for gun control.  Let alone amending the Second Amendment.    


There is a point in pushing for gun control as long as people continue to die on this scale from gun violence. We must act. Enough with this libertarian nonsense about fearing tyranny from the government. This isn't tyranny, this is public safety.

BTW that graph shows a very small spike after Newtown. If that's what your point was.

The long-term trend has been towards less support for gun control, not more.

Let's not cling to straws here.  
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Free Bird
TheHawk
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« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2015, 12:26:56 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Everything bedstuy just said, plus....

-Expand background checks
-Mental health exams
-Re-instate the Assault Weapons Ban
-Invest in smart gun technology
-Require gun training classes for first time gun purchasers

1. Sure
2. First time purchasers in a high crime area only
3. Didn't work the first time. Real assault weapons have been banned for over 80 years now! There's no legally binding term for assault weapon, only an arbitrary list of weapons that look scary
4. Subsidize all you want, nobody wants them
5. Seems like a waste of resources considering criminals that are prone to crime won't attend them after obtaining their weapon illegally.

2) I would not stop there at all. You assume that all people who commit crime are mentally ill. I guarantee you rival gang members in inner cities don't shoot each other up because they're mentally ill.
3) They have no place in America. They belong on the battlefield, not in our communities.
4) I should have clarified: make them mandatory.
5) Then law enforcement will deal with them accordingly. Training classes are about preventing people who legally purchase guns from accidentally shooting their eye out or accidentally shooting someone else.

2. At least your heart is in the right place
3. They don't have to have a reason to exist. It's their right to own them. True military weapons have been banned from civilian possession for years. An AWB would just ban pistol grips essentially.
4. Nobody wants them. Period. They are also low caliber, but if you'd make them just as powerful and let people decide then what to own, then we'd talk.
5. That's what the community is for in my eyes, but again, heart in the right place
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2015, 12:31:00 AM »

Also, politicians pay close attention to their constituents.  If we see a repeat of this in coming weeks:



there is no point in pushing for gun control.  Let alone amending the Second Amendment.    


There is a point in pushing for gun control as long as people continue to die on this scale from gun violence. We must act. Enough with this libertarian nonsense about fearing tyranny from the government. This isn't tyranny, this is public safety.

BTW that graph shows a very small spike after Newtown. If that's what your point was.

The long-term trend has been towards less support for gun control, not more.

Let's not cling to straws here.  

Not what I meant. I thought you were trying to point out that spike after Newtown.

Anyway, public opinion can change. I'm not going to accept America turning into the wild, wild west because of this country's hard on with libertarianism. Maniacs who commit massacres like in Charleston should not be able to get their hands on a gun. I'm tired of the backwards gun nuts at the NRA dictating terms. People are dying, and we need to act. This happens far too often. Far too often do we have to return to this discussion, then get accused of politicizing it by saying we need to act. Like the president said, we need to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence just doesn't happen in other countries as advanced as ours.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2015, 12:31:39 AM »

Also, politicians pay close attention to their constituents.  If we see a repeat of this in coming weeks:



there is no point in pushing for gun control.  Let alone amending the Second Amendment.   


There is a point in pushing for gun control as long as people continue to die on this scale from gun violence. We must act. Enough with this libertarian nonsense about fearing tyranny from the government. This isn't tyranny, this is public safety.

BTW that graph shows a very small spike after Newtown. If that's what your point was.

The long-term trend has been towards less support for gun control, not more.

Let's not cling to straws here. 

"We're losing on an issue!  Let's give in to the opposing side!"

Typical loser Democratic Party thinking. 

If you're losing on an issue, you try to convince people that you're right.  That's what the NRA did in the 90s and 2000s.  If you organize and work hard with passion to win people over, you can turn a losing issue into a winning issue.  That's how politics is supposed to work.

Should Hillary Clinton run on gun control in 2016?  Of course not.  That would be idiotic.  You have to know when to play your cards.  But, in the meantime, people who care about the epidemic of gun violence in this country need to start the movement to change people's minds.
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Free Bird
TheHawk
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« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2015, 12:36:06 AM »

Perhaps instead of making classes mandatory for new buyers, incentivize the States to replace gym classes with actually useful skills like shooting and other such things
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Frodo
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« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2015, 12:38:14 AM »
« Edited: June 20, 2015, 12:40:35 AM by Frodo »

You can talk about trying to change people's hearts and minds on an issue all you like -the crux of the matter is that for decades we have been conditioned to think that if government cannot be trusted to spend our tax dollars responsibly, how can we trust it (in the form of law enforcement and gun regulations) to protect us?  The issues may seem separate, but they are not.  It is no coincidence that the highest spike for gun control (and even a gun ban) was during the 1950s when trust in government was at its highest.  

Until you deal with that underlying distrust of government, any push for gun control (and other liberal/progressive objectives) won't get anywhere on a lasting basis.  
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Negusa Nagast 🚀
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« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2015, 12:39:09 AM »

Most gun control laws are ultimately going to be ineffective due to the proliferation of guns under the complete failure of existing and previous gun laws. A repeal (or MAJOR change) to the second amendment is required to cease and reverse this dangerous proliferation.
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2015, 12:39:51 AM »

Okay. Let's settle this. Every anti gun person here besides ag who is paranoid. What do you propose we do in terms of gun laws? At this point we are arguing in circles.

Everything bedstuy just said, plus....

-Expand background checks
-Mental health exams
-Re-instate the Assault Weapons Ban
-Invest in smart gun technology
-Require gun training classes for first time gun purchasers

1. Sure
2. First time purchasers in a high crime area only
3. Didn't work the first time. Real assault weapons have been banned for over 80 years now! There's no legally binding term for assault weapon, only an arbitrary list of weapons that look scary
4. Subsidize all you want, nobody wants them
5. Seems like a waste of resources considering criminals that are prone to crime won't attend them after obtaining their weapon illegally.

2) I would not stop there at all. You assume that all people who commit crime are mentally ill. I guarantee you rival gang members in inner cities don't shoot each other up because they're mentally ill.
3) They have no place in America. They belong on the battlefield, not in our communities.
4) I should have clarified: make them mandatory.
5) Then law enforcement will deal with them accordingly. Training classes are about preventing people who legally purchase guns from accidentally shooting their eye out or accidentally shooting someone else.

2. At least your heart is in the right place
3. They don't have to have a reason to exist. It's their right to own them. True military weapons have been banned from civilian possession for years. An AWB would just ban pistol grips essentially.
4. Nobody wants them. Period. They are also low caliber, but if you'd make them just as powerful and let people decide then what to own, then we'd talk.
5. That's what the community is for in my eyes, but again, heart in the right place

2) I still maintain that only sane people should own guns.
3) The one proposed in 2013 is stronger than the 1994 bill.
4) They would prevent the use of weapons by people who aren't legally allowed to use them. Support.
5) It's a common sense step. We don't want people blowing their own brains out. That said, that's not really related to our discussion on preventing mass shooting and criminal gun violence.
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Frodo
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« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2015, 12:41:12 AM »

Most gun control laws are ultimately going to be ineffective due to the proliferation of guns under the complete failure of existing and previous gun laws. A repeal (or MAJOR change) to the second amendment is required to cease and reverse this dangerous proliferation.

Good luck with that.
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #97 on: June 20, 2015, 12:41:49 AM »

Most gun control laws are ultimately going to be ineffective due to the proliferation of guns under the complete failure of existing and previous gun laws. A repeal (or MAJOR change) to the second amendment is required to cease and reverse this dangerous proliferation.

Good luck with that.

Yeah, TBH that's gonna be really hard to sell.
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #98 on: June 20, 2015, 12:43:12 AM »
« Edited: June 20, 2015, 12:47:58 AM by DimpledChad »

You can talk about trying to change people's hearts and minds on an issue all you like -the crux of the matter is that for decades we have been conditioned to think that if government cannot be trusted to spend our tax dollars responsibly, how can we trust it (in the form of law enforcement and gun regulations) to protect us?  The issues may seem separate, but they are not.  It is no coincidence that the highest spike for gun control (and even a gun ban) was during the 1950s when trust in government was at its highest.  

Until you deal with that underlying distrust of government, any push for gun control (and other liberal/progressive objectives) won't get anywhere on a lasting basis.  

I agree there is a problem, but how exactly do you figure we deal with that distrust in government?

I'm not exactly sure how we could go about that in a coherent way. Getting up trust in government requires government to actually work. Getting government to work is predicated on getting rid of the loonies (in both parties, but mostly in the GOP) who refuse to compromise, and consider it a plus that they refuse to compromise. To get up trust in government would require that these vast domestic surveillance programs end. That doesn't help the citizenry to trust the government. I don't know how we can do that in a decisive, coherent manner.
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Frodo
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« Reply #99 on: June 20, 2015, 12:48:26 AM »

You can talk about trying to change people's hearts and minds on an issue all you like -the crux of the matter is that for decades we have been conditioned to think that if government cannot be trusted to spend our tax dollars responsibly, how can we trust it (in the form of law enforcement and gun regulations) to protect us?  The issues may seem separate, but they are not.  It is no coincidence that the highest spike for gun control (and even a gun ban) was during the 1950s when trust in government was at its highest.  

Until you deal with that underlying distrust of government, any push for gun control (and other liberal/progressive objectives) won't get anywhere on a lasting basis.  

I agree there is a problem, but how exactly do you figure we deal with that distrust in government?

Very good question, and one I don't have an answer for except to say that President Obama's signature legislation (the Affordable Care Act) is far more significant to your hopes and dreams than you think.  Assuming the Supreme Court lets those subsidies go through (a very big 'if'), we should hope and pray that the execution of that legislation proceeds with as few bumps in the road as possible from then on.   
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