Dissolving Atlasia Amendment (Voting Open)

[Blair]

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Submitted under Public Consultation Act. I'm using this as the combined emergency legislation and public submission slot

[Senator Cris]

All of us know that Atlasia is facing serious troubles. We are not able to fill all Regional Legislatures. The elections are not working. The Senate needs to be reformed, as the relationship between regions and fed govt. These are the 4 major things IMHO, but there are other questions that needs to be debated.

All of you and all Atlasians know what is my position. We need to change things that are not working, but dissolving Atlasia is NOT the right way. The Constitution said that we can change these things with a Constitutional Convention and I really think that the Constitutional Convention is the only workable way to change parts of Constitutions that needs to be changed.

So, I'll oppose this amendement.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

All of us know that Atlasia is facing serious troubles. We are not able to fill all Regional Legislatures. The elections are not working. The Senate needs to be reformed, as the relationship between regions and fed govt. These are the 4 major things IMHO, but there are other questions that needs to be debated.

All of you and all Atlasians know what is my position. We need to change things that are not working, but dissolving Atlasia is NOT the right way. The Constitution said that we can change these things with a Constitutional Convention and I really think that the Constitutional Convention is the only workable way to change parts of Constitutions that needs to be changed.

So, I'll oppose this amendement.

I agree. I'm open to dissolution, but only if other methods, such as constitutional convention, fails.

[Boston Bread]

What would follow if this was passed exactly? A constitutional convention or a complete reboot?

[Blair]

What would follow if this was passed exactly? A constitutional convention or a complete reboot?

I honestly don't know-I'd want to get it checked out by the Attorney General-although he's called for the end of Atlasia if I recall correctly

[bore]

Speaking not as a legal expert, it seems to me if the constitution was completely wiped the whole country would be dissolved, seeing as the constitution is what gives various positions their legitimacy.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Speaking not as a legal expert, it seems to me if the constitution was completely wiped the whole country would be dissolved, seeing as the constitution is what gives various positions their legitimacy.

I wonder if the regions would be dissolved as well, or they would become de facto separate and independent entities.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Speaking not as a legal expert, it seems to me if the constitution was completely wiped the whole country would be dissolved, seeing as the constitution is what gives various positions their legitimacy.

I wonder if the regions would be dissolved as well, or they would become de facto separate and independent entities.

     I want clarification on this matter. I would support this amendment if that is the case, because that paradigm would be awesome.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

As tempted as I would be for such, assuming it did liberate the regions, I must say that I am highly opposed to this amendment. The one thing I think is rather certain is that dissolving the Federal gov't would create choas as well as abolish the only organized means of actually reforming the game. It seems tailor made for destruction and that is, at least in my mind, contrary the objectives of any rejunvenation or so called "restart", more or less actual reform.

At the very least, there would be a repeat of October, with people setting up their own little authorities, only this time there would be nothing to put the genie back in the bottle and nothing that could give any new process of creation any binding authority. How can you ban someone from a game that doesn't exist? You would end up with 15 different games and I think people would very quickly grow weary of playing such a disorganized game where people litterally make up their own rules on the spot.

It is the worst example of knee jerk populism and regardless of amendment, ratifiction of previously passed amendment(s) or a ConCon for good or ill, any organized process is going to be better at yielding "reforms", then complete dissolution of the game. The order stemming from exisiting processes, and both the legitimacy and respect they command as of present are a necessary glue to keep the game playable, not without reform, but especially with it to ensure such doesn't drive much needed players or away or lead to the former anarchy scenario.

Granted, it might not be sexy to go all legalistic when then populist mob is outside clamoring for people's heads on pikes. Being a demogogue is easy on a street corner, but when it comes to getting stuff done, such rarely ends well when it becomes a driving force in decision making. On the contrary, this is the very occassion where conservativism in approach is essential for success of reforms. History always shows the alternative is both counterproductive to the desired goals and nasty as hell. The fact that this is a game means the consequences on participation are critical and failure to account for such could easily lead to the loss of more players as chaos replaces order.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

the point is we need a radical change, and the ongoing petition for a constitutional convention will never reach the ludicrously high numbers it needs.

you could also do something along the lines of this, i guess:

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2. the senate hereby calls for a constitutional convention[/quote]

[Senator Cris]

the point is we need a radical change, and the ongoing petition for a constitutional convention will never reach the ludicrously high numbers it needs.

you could also do something along the lines of this, i guess:

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2. the senate hereby calls for a constitutional convention

[/quote]

It's not so easy, but we can try, absolutely.
First, the Senate should pass an amendment at the Section 2, Article VII. Then it should be passed by 4/5 regions.
After this passage, the Senate can calls for a ConCon.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I think the scale of this option requires a SIGNIFICANT degree of public support, above and beyond the usual standard for Constitutional amendments.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Bore is correct.

I wonder if the regions would be dissolved as well, or they would become de facto separate and independent entities.

The Regions are created by the same Constitution as the federal government and have no independent existence.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Who is going to stop them from creating an independent existance?


No Constitution, means no Al to charge people with treason for merely creating an advocacy organization, much less for turning the Northeast into the Grand Sovereign Independent Northern Kingdom of Atlasia.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No one, kiddo, no one. This is but a game on the internet. If you want to set yourself up as the Supreme Senator For Life PPT of the Southern Region or whatever there's nowt that I or anyone else can do to prevent it.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

No one, kiddo, no one. This is but a game on the internet. If you want to set yourself up as the Supreme Senator For Life PPT of the Southern Region or whatever there's nowt that I or anyone else can do to prevent it.

Nice try, Al.

You guys are the ones trying to abolish the constitution, not me. By your own admission, this will therefore end the game. Not dissolve and rebuild. End it. People will set up their own games with their own rules. I don't see any orderly rebuilt or whatever comng from that and certainly no process that anyone is under any authority to command respect for.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, yes. The game will end. Well done for spotting our secret agenda!

Of course we can then use the space we have - and the 'community' and shared history that we have here as well - to build a new game as a replacement.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well, yes. The game will end. Well done for spotting our secret agenda!

Of course we can then use the space we have - and the 'community' and shared history that we have here as well - to build a new game as a replacement.

And no one will be obligated to respect said process. The chaos will drive more and more people away until that very community you mention fractures and withers away to nothing.

I also note the use of the word "can" instead of "will".

[Blair]

What would actually happen if we approved this? I mean logistics wise how do we start up a new game?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I honestly think an amendment, in this form, is simply too imprecise and leaving too much greay area.

[Cranberry]

What would actually happen if we approved this? I mean logistics wise how do we start up a new game?

People would come together and start a new thing from the scratch, just like they did in 2004. I don't know if anyone is still around from the beginning of Atlasia (Al, maybe?), but if, that person could certainly tell us how people organised into Atlasia then, and that would certainly give us an idea on how to do it now.

Sorry to interrupt, but I though that as one of the guys behind this I should speak a few words myself on that before I'm off on holiday.

[Cranberry]

I honestly think an amendment, in this form, is simply too imprecise and leaving too much greay area.

Well, that's precisely the point. This is intended to just wipe it all off the table, with no plan B or emergency mechanism or laid out path to follow. Only through that, through having to start over from the scratch, with nothing at all from the "old" Atlasia, true, substantial, real change can come.

To respond to something Yankee said earlier here: The "conservative way" will just end us up in something far too similar as we have now, and I personally see just no point whatsoever in that; painting something blue doesn't change it, so to say, and having three regions instead of five or more powers go the individual regions or renaming the Senate to "Imperial and Royal and Lordly Chamber of Radiant Wizardry" won't bring us anything in the long run. We need something fundamentally different, and the only way you get that is to start nowhere but at a new beginning.

[Blair]

I mean, my concern is that we could scrap it and then spend 6 months trying to work out what to want. And even if we did, we'd create a new country with new parties but the same old faces would try and control it. The same problems, in my view would still be there

Tbh if we want something really challenging then make ourself a new country in Southern Africa in the 1980's, when it was really impossible to govern.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And no one will be obligated to respect said process. The chaos will drive more and more people away until that very community you mention fractures and withers away to nothing.

I also note the use of the word "can" instead of "will".

Well I for one would not miss the zombies, if that's who you mean. Otherwise, well, it's a game isn't it?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

People would come together and start a new thing from the scratch, just like they did in 2004. I don't know if anyone is still around from the beginning of Atlasia (Al, maybe?), but if, that person could certainly tell us how people organised into Atlasia then, and that would certainly give us an idea on how to do it now.

Tweed suggested that it would be fun to run some sort of mock elections game. Democratic and Republican primaries were organised and candidates were selected. There was then an election (the Democrat - Nym - narrowly won). The mechanisms of government were not sorted out until after the election; we didn't even have a Senate until a few months later.