Why is education falling behind?

[MaxQue]

Chinese education isn't everything, I agree, but we should strive for their math standards. We should emulate the levels of critical thinking found in those high-level questions and inculcate them in our students, along with maintaining a good number sense (developed through arithmetic).  This may require an hour longer per day to have a double math block, but I think it would be a lot better without the sheer craziness of some aspects of the Chinese model. 

Critical thinking is what the Chinese do not inculcate in their students. I have taught or advised a number of Chinese students at the undergraduate and graduate level. On the whole they are way ahead of their American counterparts in their computation skills. When faced with a problem that can be directly reduced to solving an equation or applying an algorithm they rock. When faced with a situation that requires the open-ended design of a question or experiment they are stuck. They require a higher degree of oversight than Americans in projects that require initiative since they tend to wait for guidance towards a specific question, and when they solve it they just wait for new input rather than explore related questions.

Even in math?  I admit that's a little surprising, at least for Shanghai. 

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/

Shanghai students do rather well on the problem solving test and are absolute rockstars on the math test.  It seems the problem solving test would look at "critical thinking" skills not directly drilled into them, considering the way they were formatted into an application-style problem.  Is there a difference between students in Shanghai/Macau and the rest of China in this domain? 

At least to me, it seems the "problem solving section" would be a decent gauge of critical thinking in mathematics domains to me.

The issue isn't solving "math problems". They find equations to solve it and that's it.

The issue is when facing real life problems or doing research. If they have a chemical reaction to do and than it doesn't work, they don't do further investigations, they freeze and wait until their profressor gives them clear guidance on what to do.

They struggle very much with open-ended questions or research.

They are wonderful for computing data, do algorithms, but when it's open-ended or needing more creative problem-solving, it's more complicated. Their system is too ridig to allow them to create researchers.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Is that politically motivated? China wants human computers not critical thinkers, and the reasons why they would are painfully obvious.

[RFayette]

Chinese education isn't everything, I agree, but we should strive for their math standards. We should emulate the levels of critical thinking found in those high-level questions and inculcate them in our students, along with maintaining a good number sense (developed through arithmetic).  This may require an hour longer per day to have a double math block, but I think it would be a lot better without the sheer craziness of some aspects of the Chinese model. 

Critical thinking is what the Chinese do not inculcate in their students. I have taught or advised a number of Chinese students at the undergraduate and graduate level. On the whole they are way ahead of their American counterparts in their computation skills. When faced with a problem that can be directly reduced to solving an equation or applying an algorithm they rock. When faced with a situation that requires the open-ended design of a question or experiment they are stuck. They require a higher degree of oversight than Americans in projects that require initiative since they tend to wait for guidance towards a specific question, and when they solve it they just wait for new input rather than explore related questions.

Even in math?  I admit that's a little surprising, at least for Shanghai. 

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/

Shanghai students do rather well on the problem solving test and are absolute rockstars on the math test.  It seems the problem solving test would look at "critical thinking" skills not directly drilled into them, considering the way they were formatted into an application-style problem.  Is there a difference between students in Shanghai/Macau and the rest of China in this domain? 

At least to me, it seems the "problem solving section" would be a decent gauge of critical thinking in mathematics domains to me.

The issue isn't solving "math problems". They find equations to solve it and that's it.

The issue is when facing real life problems or doing research. If they have a chemical reaction to do and than it doesn't work, they don't do further investigations, they freeze and wait until their profressor gives them clear guidance on what to do.

They struggle very much with open-ended questions or research.

They are wonderful for computing data, do algorithms, but when it's open-ended or needing more creative problem-solving, it's more complicated. Their system is too ridig to allow them to create researchers.

If you look at the "Problem Solving" section of the PISA test I linked to, they weren't just math questions/formulas.  They seemed to be more problem-solving oriented in general.  I agree there's a creativity problem in China, but that doesn't mean we can't emulate the best parts of their education system, and I would say their math instruction is pretty darn good.

[RFayette]

Is that politically motivated? China wants human computers not critical thinkers, and the reasons why they would are painfully obvious.

When I reference Shanghai, I could just as easily talk about (recently independent) Macau, Hong Kong, Singapore, or Taiwan, which have similar instructional rigor in math.  Perhaps they aren't as "mechanical"?  I've heard very good things about Singapore's system, for instance. 

My point is that we can take the math curriculum from China without taking the other nasty stuff along with it. 

[muon2]

Is that politically motivated? China wants human computers not critical thinkers, and the reasons why they would are painfully obvious.

When I reference Shanghai, I could just as easily talk about (recently independent) Macau, Hong Kong, Singapore, or Taiwan, which have similar instructional rigor in math.  Perhaps they aren't as "mechanical"?  I've heard very good things about Singapore's system, for instance.  

My point is that we can take the math curriculum from China without taking the other nasty stuff along with it.  

The answer is yes. As the OECD PISA report for the US in 2012 notes

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I went through the sample math questions and they are generally questions that involve relating numeracy to the real world through word (story) problems. That contrasts with the purely mathematical problems that were historically more typical in the US. Those types of numeracy to world connections in PISA are what the Common Core standards are designed for.

In my experience in entry-level university science courses, most students greatest weakness is their ability to translate a word problem to one involving mathematical relationships.

[dead0man]

education isn't falling behind. When you control for demos, the U.S. is doing pretty good.

Indeed.  Some people care, a lot don't.  It makes the numbers look bad, but at the end of the day, our smart guys doing stuff are just as smart as any other place's smart guys doing stuff.

[Mercenary]

Im not sure about Eurppe, but in regards to high scores in Asia it is mainly due to the fact thay parents are not only more involved in their kids educatiom, they are obsessive about it. Kids go to afterschool academies for math and science and such, often times until late in the evening.

One stdent I knew informed me of their schedule and theu finished at 10pm. That isnt some college kid who worked a part time job then ate dinner and did homework utntil 10, it was a 4th grade student in school all day.

Sure they score higher in math and science, but it comes at a major cost to the students.
That isnt to say the US education is any good, but you cannot really.compare test scores since the approach is quite different.

I agree with the post that mentioned we should focus on problem solving and analysis and less on memorization. I dont necessarily think we should push more in general, but we should be more willing to adapt to individual students. Students learn differently and ideally we should have more than one type of teaching style to account for that. I know I for example do not learn well from listening anf thus traditional lectures were a waste of time, my greatest learning came from reading on my own. But then of course I know someone the exact opposite who cannot learn at all without a teacher lecturing.

[pbrower2a]

Isn't Finland the world's education leader now?

Control for socio-economic status, and American kids do as well as the Finns. America has far more, and more severe, poverty. That is the difference.

[The Dowager Mod]

Because the Republicans have slashed funding for schools and demonized teachers, Pretty simple.

[MaxQue]

Because homeschooling is legal.

[DC Al Fine]

Because homeschooling is legal.

Yeah that's it

[Consciously Unconscious]

Because homeschooling is legal.

Yeah that's it

I mean academically homeschoolers are just so far behind academically compared to public schoolers.   

[IronFist]

Because homeschooling is legal.

But homeschooling is the best option we have now. At least it doesn't require kids to learn about liberal worldview. If you want your kid to really learn things then homeschooling is the best choice.

[pbrower2a]

Because homeschooling is legal.

But homeschooling is the best option we have now. At least it doesn't require kids to learn about liberal worldview. If you want your kid to really learn things then homeschooling is the best choice.

...and be out of touch with reality. No, I don't mean reality TV. I mean the reality of multiple cultures, alternative views, and of course science that contradicts a literal reading of the least-reliable parts of the Bible.

Most parents who do home schooling do so to 'shelter' their kids from reality.

A hint: Rachel Dolezal was home-schooled.

[RFayette]

Because homeschooling is legal.

But homeschooling is the best option we have now. At least it doesn't require kids to learn about liberal worldview. If you want your kid to really learn things then homeschooling is the best choice.

...and be out of touch with reality. No, I don't mean reality TV. I mean the reality of multiple cultures, alternative views, and of course science that contradicts a literal reading of the least-reliable parts of the Bible.

Most parents who do home schooling do so to 'shelter' their kids from reality.

A hint: Rachel Dolezal was home-schooled.

First, homeschoolers do better on the SATs than those going to public schools.  Second, there's nothing wrong with a parent trying to mold them in faith and keep kids from the destructive influences of many public schools.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Isn't Finland the world's education leader now?

The Finnish education system is widely studied in graduate schools but from my understanding seems to be an anomaly. Nevertheless, the general tenets that I understand from it is that relatively speaking freedom of curriculum is given to the teachers, the teachers themselves are required to be near the top of their graduating class in university otherwise they are not qualified to teach, teacher salaries are comparable to those of other professionals such as doctors, and that the government and teachers' unions have a far more cordial relationship than in the United States.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Let's suggest a moderate compromise people: homeschooling should of course be illegal, but people who are homeschooled are invariably creepy weirdos (TimTurner aside).

[Simfan34]

Let's suggest a moderate compromise people: homeschooling should of course be illegal, but people who are homeschooled are invariably creepy weirdos (TimTurner aside).

Where's the compromise?

[pbrower2a]

Because homeschooling is legal.

But homeschooling is the best option we have now. At least it doesn't require kids to learn about liberal worldview. If you want your kid to really learn things then homeschooling is the best choice.

...and be out of touch with reality. No, I don't mean reality TV. I mean the reality of multiple cultures, alternative views, and of course science that contradicts a literal reading of the least-reliable parts of the Bible.

Most parents who do home schooling do so to 'shelter' their kids from reality.

A hint: Rachel Dolezal was home-schooled.

First, homeschoolers do better on the SATs than those going to public schools.  Second, there's nothing wrong with a parent trying to mold them in faith and keep kids from the destructive influences of many public schools.

1. But they are lambs to the slaughter in the real world.

2. Faith in nonsense (like young-earth creationism, Marxism-Leninism, UFOs, Afrocentrism) is worthless.

3. It's up to parents to make clear that their children are to avoid getting drawn into destructive tendencies. Once the kids are out on their own they will face those in real life -- as in the workplace. Learning to recognize dangerous temptation for what it is and learning to avoid it is essential to becoming an adult.

When I was in high school -- not only was I often offered drugs -- some people actually tried to get me to deal drugs!

4. Homeschooling might be acceptable if the parents are unusually adept at teaching -- but such suggests that they could fare better by teaching kids in the public schools.

[MaxQue]

Because homeschooling is legal.

But homeschooling is the best option we have now. At least it doesn't require kids to learn about liberal worldview. If you want your kid to really learn things then homeschooling is the best choice.

I see it didn't took long before you tried to go around your banning, CCSF.

[RFayette]

Because homeschooling is legal.

But homeschooling is the best option we have now. At least it doesn't require kids to learn about liberal worldview. If you want your kid to really learn things then homeschooling is the best choice.

...and be out of touch with reality. No, I don't mean reality TV. I mean the reality of multiple cultures, alternative views, and of course science that contradicts a literal reading of the least-reliable parts of the Bible.

Most parents who do home schooling do so to 'shelter' their kids from reality.

A hint: Rachel Dolezal was home-schooled.

First, homeschoolers do better on the SATs than those going to public schools.  Second, there's nothing wrong with a parent trying to mold them in faith and keep kids from the destructive influences of many public schools.

1. But they are lambs to the slaughter in the real world.

2. Faith in nonsense (like young-earth creationism, Marxism-Leninism, UFOs, Afrocentrism) is worthless.

3. It's up to parents to make clear that their children are to avoid getting drawn into destructive tendencies. Once the kids are out on their own they will face those in real life -- as in the workplace. Learning to recognize dangerous temptation for what it is and learning to avoid it is essential to becoming an adult.

When I was in high school -- not only was I often offered drugs -- some people actually tried to get me to deal drugs!

4. Homeschooling might be acceptable if the parents are unusually adept at teaching -- but such suggests that they could fare better by teaching kids in the public schools.

1. It's empirically true that homeschoolers get higher SAT scores than kids going to public schools.  Show me the evidence they're "lambs for the slaughter" in the real world. 

2. True, but many homeschooling parents just want to imbue a religious worldview; you may call that "nonsense," but I contend that is their right, and from a societal standpoint, there's no real negative consequence to doing so.

3.  Most parents already choose higher-income public school districts to shield kids from those influences through high school.  I'm suggesting that for families where this is not an option, then homeschooling may be a good alternative.  The time for choosing will come, but given what we know about brain development, you must agree that perhaps some choices ought to be delayed.

4. Perhaps self-selection is at play then.  Parents who choose to homeschool are better at teaching than those who don't, hence the results we see.  In which case, keep it up.  Also, one-on-one instruction is likely easier than one-on-thirty, even if the person doing the one-on-one (or in case of the Duggars, a bit more ), is less "qualified" than those teachers who have 29 other kids to attend to.  Also, having gone to public schools my whole life, I can say that many teachers probably don't do a better job than an average parent would....this is especially true, I've found, in my social studies, English, and some science (particularly bio and first-year physics) classes.  This is another issue altogether though.

Also, as far as socialization is concerned, you can be socially awkward despite having graduated from public school.  Exhibit A:  most of Atlas.   

[dead0man]

Assholes like to ban things they don't understand, this isn't new.

[Consciously Unconscious]

Let's suggest a moderate compromise people: homeschooling should of course be illegal, but people who are homeschooled are invariably creepy weirdos (TimTurner aside).

Yeah, I've seen homeschoolers on TV and met a couple once.  I think I can accurately say that homeschoolers are socially oblvious weirdos. 

[Blacky]

I think it's an eternal problem, and the problem is not in teachers, not in their salaries but in children and their will to go to school and be taught. Plus, too many honeypots children have all around in our days.

Homeschooling today is an absurd, social education is necessary to grow up as this-society person.

[IronFist]

I think it's an eternal problem, and the problem is not in teachers, not in their salaries but in children and their will to go to school and be taught. Plus, too many honeypots children have all around in our days.

Homeschooling today is an absurd, social education is necessary to grow up as this-society person.

Well, homeschooling works and children may socialize somewhere else outside of the school. Schools are definitely better for socialization but I don't want my children to be brainwashed by gender studies courses.