looks like Tsipras has folded

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It wouldn't necessarily be as impossible for Greece to do a quick exit as everyone seems to think. Greece produces its own Euro notes which can be differentiated based on the serial number and Euro coins which have their own obverse. So a separate Greek Euro could be quickly implemented. It would cause Eurozone-wide pain for those dealing with physical money, but it would be reminiscent of what happened with the Papal States and the Latin Monetary Union in the 19th century.

Of all the absurd suggestions so far "five year sabbatical" is the most ridiculous.

If Greece is out, it's hard to see how it can get back 'in'.

Meeting the Maastricht criteria in five years is probably impossible, but if the devaluation of the Greek Euro is done right, returning to the Eurozone Euro within ten could probably be done. The main obstacle would likely be the interest rate requirement.

[ingemann]

Of all the absurd suggestions so far "five year sabbatical" is the most ridiculous.

If Greece is out, it's hard to see how it can get back 'in'.

Yes I agree.

[traininthedistance]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

So you want Greeks to starve on the street.  Good to know.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Today's events give great credence to the theory that the last few weeks have been nothing more than shadowpuppetry trying to put the blame for grexit on one party or another.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Today's events give great credence to the theory that the last few weeks have been nothing more than shadowpuppetry trying to put the blame for grexit on one party or another.

On Germany's part, certainly. It's crystal-clear they don't give two f**ks about finding a mutually acceptable agreement.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Today's events give great credence to the theory that the last few weeks have been nothing more than shadowpuppetry trying to put the blame for grexit on one party or another.

On Germany's part, certainly. It's crystal-clear they don't give two f**ks about finding a mutually acceptable agreement.

Not necessarily Germany. Finland has just come out and said they are against a bailout and want Grexit. The Finns Party threatened to bring down the government otherwise.

Anyway, it looks like the Anti-Greece camp might get their way after all. Perhaps Tsipras is a successful master of 5D chess after all.

[Hydera]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

So you want Greeks to starve on the street.  Good to know.

lol, forcing greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve.

[RogueBeaver]

German 5-year Grexit is supported by the Dutch, Finns, Estonians, Lithuanians, Slovaks and Slovenians.

[Hydera]

German 5-year Grexit is supported by the Dutch, Finns, Estonians, Lithuanians, Slovaks and Slovenians.

Hope so. Greece has been a money drain and if they approve the original greece-stay and get 80 billion euro package. They'll be back less than a year asking for more just like they did every year.

They've been kicking the can down the road every year since 2010.

[MaxQue]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

So you want Greeks to starve on the street.  Good to know.

lol, forcing greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve.

Why are you lying and not wearing a blue avatar?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

It needs only 15% +1 of the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) votes to block the deal. But all those countries mentioned only have 10% pooled together.... unless Germany joins them, in which that will be enough to block the deal on their own.

[Hydera]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

So you want Greeks to starve on the street.  Good to know.

lol, forcing greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve.

Why are you lying and not wearing a blue avatar?

Do you mean that Crimson socialist avatar?

Because not all democrats are self identified liberals(in the american sense).



Ever since that socialist crimson avatar was created, Its mainly centre-left and centrists who didn't switch. Meanwhile a large portion of the red avatars showed their true colors.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I was going to post the ESM voting table showing what percentage of votes each nation has - but for some reason the copy/paste function isn't working for me now on this board. It's on the equivalent thread on AAD for those interested.

Anyway, the Greek Government has announced that capital controls will remain in place for another two months. Great way to kill the Greek private sector then.

[MaxQue]

Wanting people not to starve isn't socialist, it's humane.

But, yeah, I suppose bankers profits are more important than people dying of starvation.

[Hydera]

Wanting people not to starve isn't socialist, it's humane.

But, yeah, I suppose bankers profits are more important than people dying of starvation.

Once again explain how forcing a way to get greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve. I want to know.

I also support banks being banned from lending to greece.

[traininthedistance]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

So you want Greeks to starve on the street.  Good to know.

lol, forcing greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve.

Look, this is something that reasonable people could have disagreed on until today.  But the fact that Tsipras has completely folded and acceded to the Eurogroup's demands– presumably on the theory that Grexit would in fact lead to people starving in the streets and he doesn't want that– and yet Germany along with associated other Northern Europe countries have decided to shift the goalposts at the last minute, and kick 'em out anyway, proves that this is all about the "forcing" and not at all about the "living within their means".  It's Discipline and Punish, it's moralizing sneering in place of humanitarian imperatives.

I would refer you– and ag, and all the other anti-Greek posters here– to this post that was making the rounds recently and, IMO, deftly demolishes the hypocrisy of creditor moralizing here.  Allow me to quote the money grafs:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But, really, the whole thing is worth everyone's time.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that some of the earlier hard-line Tsipras posturing was all ideology and all bumbling, that he's not the hero Greece needs, but after today it's crystal clear that even that is preferable to the sadism of Northern Europe.

[traininthedistance]

Also, the idea that doing as the creditors wish will help Greece "live within its means" is utter nonsense:



Doing as they say hasn't helped them "live within their means," it's just systematically destroyed their means with which to live. 

[Hydera]

Also, the idea that doing as the creditors wish will help Greece "live within its means" is utter nonsense:



Doing as they say hasn't helped them "live within their means," it's just systematically destroyed their means with which to live. 

If your "means with which to live" involves borrowing tons and tons of debt and expecting other to forgive you when they question whats that funny thing going on in your balance sheet, then your a hopeless country.

Greece needs to get kicked out and forced to live within their means which involves the EU not giving them any money until they learn to do so.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Also, the idea that doing as the creditors wish will help Greece "live within its means" is utter nonsense:



Doing as they say hasn't helped them "live within their means," it's just systematically destroyed their means with which to live. 

If your "means with which to live" involves borrowing tons and tons of debt and expecting other to forgive you when they question whats that funny thing going on in your balance sheet, then your a hopeless country.

Greece needs to get kicked out and forced to live within their means which involves the EU not giving them any money until they learn to do so.

I assume this will also involve the EU keeping its promises in regards to freedom of movement while this happens?

[MaxQue]

Also, the idea that doing as the creditors wish will help Greece "live within its means" is utter nonsense:



Doing as they say hasn't helped them "live within their means," it's just systematically destroyed their means with which to live. 

If your "means with which to live" involves borrowing tons and tons of debt and expecting other to forgive you when they question whats that funny thing going on in your balance sheet, then your a hopeless country.

Greece needs to get kicked out and forced to live within their means which involves the EU not giving them any money until they learn to do so.

Again, that's a failure to understand basic economics. Each series of cuts weaken the econony. So, every attempt to lower expenses will lower revenues. That's totally impossible for them to live within their means without outside help in the current economical system. To make money, you need money.

Unless you're suggesting they should drop market economy?

[traininthedistance]

Also, the idea that doing as the creditors wish will help Greece "live within its means" is utter nonsense:



Doing as they say hasn't helped them "live within their means," it's just systematically destroyed their means with which to live.  

If your "means with which to live" involves borrowing tons and tons of debt and expecting other to forgive you when they question whats that funny thing going on in your balance sheet, then your a hopeless country.

Greece needs to get kicked out and forced to live within their means which involves the EU not giving them any money until they learn to do so.

A) They just put forward a proposal that was everything the creditors had been asking for and more, and yet the response is still just "kick you out!  We don't care about the human consequences!"

B) Every piece of evidence we have has proven that the policies desired by Greece's creditors has backfired– well, assuming that economic growth, structural improvement, and a sustainable base from which Greece can actually be physically able to pay back its loans is anything close the goal.  How are they supposed to pay people back if they're being plunged into permanent depression?  This isn't "living within their means" (as if that was a magic mantra with which to justify any deprivation), this is forcing them to sell the seed corn.

Sickening.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, the idea that doing as the creditors wish will help Greece "live within its means" is utter nonsense:



Doing as they say hasn't helped them "live within their means," it's just systematically destroyed their means with which to live. 

If your "means with which to live" involves borrowing tons and tons of debt and expecting other to forgive you when they question whats that funny thing going on in your balance sheet, then your a hopeless country.

Greece needs to get kicked out and forced to live within their means which involves the EU not giving them any money until they learn to do so.

You are either a complete moron or an utterly sick individual.

[ingemann]

A) They just put forward a proposal that was everything the creditors had been asking for and more, and yet the response is still just "kick you out!  We don't care about the human consequences!"

That was then, this is now.

The Greeks took a risk with the referendum, and their creditors seem to have lost trust in them as negotiation partners, plus the referendum showed that the markets reacted very little to the threat of a Grexit.This means that at best the creditor's price have gone up and at worst, their creditors have no longer a wish to reach a agrement.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

...and what do the creditors get out of the Greeks keep their economy going by loaning more money abroad and write off the existing debt? What you suggest won't make Greece able to pay off its debt, you just suggest that the rest of EZ keep sending money to Greece and write of the money they have sent.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The only way Greece pays off most of its debt is that we forgive a share of it. That's what I don't get. Either you get some of your money back, or you get absolutely nothing because Greece defaults. So if Germany really wanted its money back, they should do the sensible thing and negotiate a restructuring.

But that's not what they want. They want to make an example of Greece, in order to scare bigger countries like Spain and Italy into complying to their absurd, failed economic and monetary policies. They are literally trying to convince all Europeans that, as Ol' Maggie said, there is no alternative.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Anyone want to get what will happen in the next set of polls? ANTARSYA up ahead?