looks like Tsipras has folded

[Hydera]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

[Hydera]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

So you want Greeks to starve on the street.  Good to know.

lol, forcing greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve.

[Hydera]

German 5-year Grexit is supported by the Dutch, Finns, Estonians, Lithuanians, Slovaks and Slovenians.

Hope so. Greece has been a money drain and if they approve the original greece-stay and get 80 billion euro package. They'll be back less than a year asking for more just like they did every year.

They've been kicking the can down the road every year since 2010.

[Hydera]

key news today is Eurogroup may not accept the deal.  rumor is Merkel wants to reject it and the French want to accept it.  the Germans smell Tsipras' weakness and are going for the full out kill.

Schauble is even talking some nonsense about a "temporary 5 year Grexit"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germans-tout-plans-for-five-year-temporary-Grexit-after-Europeans-warn-reforms-are-too-little-too-late.html

Instead of a five year exit they should get a permanent exit from the euro currency.

Also there needs to be a way to force their bond yields to never go below 15% for the next 10 years so they can't think they can just borrow themselves to growth.

So you want Greeks to starve on the street.  Good to know.

lol, forcing greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve.

Why are you lying and not wearing a blue avatar?

Do you mean that Crimson socialist avatar?

Because not all democrats are self identified liberals(in the american sense).



Ever since that socialist crimson avatar was created, Its mainly centre-left and centrists who didn't switch. Meanwhile a large portion of the red avatars showed their true colors.

[Hydera]

Wanting people not to starve isn't socialist, it's humane.

But, yeah, I suppose bankers profits are more important than people dying of starvation.

Once again explain how forcing a way to get greeks to live within their means = wanting them to starve. I want to know.

I also support banks being banned from lending to greece.

[Hydera]

Also, the idea that doing as the creditors wish will help Greece "live within its means" is utter nonsense:



Doing as they say hasn't helped them "live within their means," it's just systematically destroyed their means with which to live. 

If your "means with which to live" involves borrowing tons and tons of debt and expecting other to forgive you when they question whats that funny thing going on in your balance sheet, then your a hopeless country.

Greece needs to get kicked out and forced to live within their means which involves the EU not giving them any money until they learn to do so.

[Hydera]

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

Because you are asking them to pay for it. Either through taxes, or through seignorage. And, like most people out there, they do not want to pay for somebody else.

I understand that. But there should have been some limit, some point beyond which people started to realize that debt forgiveness would help Greece vastly more than it would hurt Germany, some point at which the insistence on taking the harshest imaginable line gave way to, if nothing else, pity. The fact that this didn't even come close to happening puts one in mind more of the attitudes that people have towards enemy Others than towards European partners, and I'm honestly outright repulsed by the nature and tone of political discourse within Germany. Again, maybe I'm too softhearted.

Debt forgiveness would only cause only european countries along with greece again, to do the same behavior of taking tons of loans to give out unsustainable promises to the electorate in exchange for votes.

If other european countries see that can borrow tons and tons of money and then throw temper tantrums and have their debt forgiven it creates a chain moral hazard.

[Hydera]

I understand that. But there should have been some limit, some point beyond which people started to realize that debt forgiveness would help Greece vastly more than it would hurt Germany, some point at which the insistence on taking the harshest imaginable line gave way to, if nothing else, pity. The fact that this didn't even come close to happening puts one in mind more of the attitudes that people have towards enemy Others than towards European partners, and I'm honestly outright repulsed by the nature and tone of political discourse within Germany. Again, maybe I'm too softhearted.

In the history of interactions between creditors and debtors, even when forgiving debt would help the debtor far more than it would hurt the creditor (as you say), normally the creditor does not forgive the debt, and in fact normally no one even expects him to. Germany is behaving the same way people have behaved basically since the invention of money.

The sensibility that debt should be forgiven under such circumstances, even if it's historically very atypical, has been common on the non-useless left for a while now, is the thing.

Half of their debt was already forgiven in 2011-2012.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/26/news/international/european_union_crisis_summit/

Their inability to recover has more to do with the state of their economy which for three decades operated as a pyramid scheme feeding foreign loans, while producing never enough to pay back what they promised they owe.