looks like Tsipras has folded

[ag]

 let them reset the clocks to zero.

If it were the matter of resetting the clocks to zero, it would have been ok. Unfortunately, it seems like it would be smthg around 1200 BC.

[ag]

resign, hand power to the Syriza left, let them reset the clocks to zero.

?

Good one.

[ag]

Well, they tried acting mad - and it did not work. Tsakolotos is a better game theorist

[ag]

When even a country is unable to stand up to the bankers, it's really time to reign their powers in. Too bad the TISA agreement being negotiated between the US, EU, and some other countries would make the bankers even less regulated and more powerful.

Bankers have very little to do with this. It is one country against 18.

[ag]

that referendum was the most jaw-droppingly stupid stunt I have ever seen in politics.

hard to argue otherwise

[ag]

I had always suspected this would happen, but that referendum was the most jaw-droppingly stupid stunt I have ever seen in politics. You make a point of calling a referendum when no one expected you to do so, the side you publically campaigned on won resoundingly, and a few days later you do exactly the opposite of both the referendum result and your own stated position. Talk about loss of dignity. No one in the EU could have humiliated Tsipiras as bad as he did to himself.

True, he shouldn't have capitulated.

Yeah, he should have gotten hold of a big nuke and exploded it in the middle of Athens instead. Would have done less damage to the Greek people than continuing acting mad, as they have been.

[ag]

KKE has been proven right as usual.

At least in this instance. The minute that Syriza decided it was going to manage Greek capitalism rather than end it is the minute that this path was inevitable. Just more evidence that reformism, even in the most 'revolutionary' of guises, is a dead end.

Well, the moment it turned out Tsipras was unwilling to kill his grandma, he was a traitor, of course.

[ag]

When even a country is unable to stand up to the bankers, it's really time to reign their powers in. Too bad the TISA agreement being negotiated between the US, EU, and some other countries would make the bankers even less regulated and more powerful.

Bankers have very little to do with this. It is one country against 18.

A part of me wanted to see Merkel call a referendum in Germany to find out if Germany is a nation of bankers.

Germany does not do referendums. For a reason

[ag]

I mean, feel free to party, Austerians.  looks like you won.  I won't think the less of you.

Why should they party? They knew they was going to win from the start. I think instead we all should congratulate the Greeks for finally deciding to limit the damage to Greece.

no they did not.  some of them may be so enured to the idea that their sh**t stinks that they think they can never lose, that finance capital will endure forever -- it won't.

post-Oxi, the Syriza "Left Platform" drew up a Grexit plan which would have made some aggressive changes to the structure of the state -- nationalizing banks, for instance.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/07/tsipras-euro-debt-default-grexit/


fast forward to 2018: the Hellenic Republic has its hands long washed of the Euro and Syriza maintains *popular support.  movements spring up in Spain, Italy in attempt to do the same maneuver.  

there's hardly any guarantee that would have been successful, but it might have been.  unfortunately, Syriza's leadership (from Tsipras to Yanis to Euclid) would never consider it.  they don't have Lenin's set of balls, let's just say.

today, most "left platform" MPs are voting for perpetual debt peonage.  one of them even fcking cried on TV.

The reason they did not do this is that they realized, that had they done it, the much more likely news in 2018 would have been the EU definitevely expelling The State of Greece in retaliation for the Greek military government executing national traitors Tsipras and Varufakis.

[ag]

non-Euro Syriza government would have long been expelled dude.  you are right that the leaders would be risking their lives for the chance at being a historic figure.

There would be no risk involved, whatsoever. It would have been a near guarantee. As would be a military dictatorship for Greece - I doubt Greece would tolerate well the economic collapse that you are promoting.

[ag]

and ag, and all the other anti-Greek posters here

I would object to being an anti-Greek poster here or anywhere.

1. I, most definitely, do not blame Greeks for the disaster that is happening now.

2. I do believe European partners should do their utmost to help mitigate the economic and social disaster that the Greeks are being plunged in.

3. I do believe that Greek debt is unsustainable and, in fact, will not be (and should not be) paid. And, BTW, I have no particular moral belief about "sanctity" of debts.

4. I even believe Greece may be better off outside of the euro for the moment - especially, if other European countries make an effort to deal with the transition (see point 2 - the transition, of course, is something I am very scared about - the human cost of it may be extremely large).

5. And, though not an admirer of the current Greek government, I do not, obviously, blame it for the entire situation: it would be ridiculous to blame the guys who only got in 6 months ago.

6. In fact, I believe that the Greek voters were absolutely correct in kicking out the ND and PASOK bastards: democracy is all about punishing the governments that preside over disasters.

7. I am afraid that much worse governments will come to power if SYRIZA fails (as it, I am afraid, it will).

I guess, my "anti-Greekness" here is in that

1. I refuse to blame the Germans or the bankers (they are no more to blame than the Greeks).

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

3. I believe that, all said and done, Greece has benefited enormously from its membership in european institutions (though, may be, not the euro).

4. I believe that the current disaster is, in fact, inbuilt into the structure of the euro zone - and everybody was warned about this at the time of joining (wasn't that the point of the "stability and growth pact"?)

5. I do not believe in national pride and dignity as desirable guiding objectives of any government, especially in a situation as tough as this one.

6. I am not particularly impressed by the current government's handling of the situation (at this point, probably, it is hard to find somebody who is).

7. I find that last thing unsurprising: in fact, it is precisely the expectation that this government would be fundamentally incompetent that made me argue long ago that either the Papandreu or the Samaras government should have themselves negotiated Grexit, without waiting for others do it.

I do not know if any of this makes me anti-Greek, but I would definitely like to set my position out straight here.

[ag]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

[ag]

this is insane.  they can't actually think that they can maintain sovereignty without mass repressions at least some of the time if this goes through.  all of this over ~320 billion Euros (theoretically anyway) -- a fcking keystroke for the Fed or ECB.

What repressions? The Europeans are not asking for any restrictions on political activity, or media, or individual rights. They are merely giving a choice of taking the money on some conditions, or not taking the money and having to implement even rougher conditions.

[ag]

this is insane.  they can't actually think that they can maintain sovereignty without mass repressions at least some of the time if this goes through.  all of this over ~320 billion Euros (theoretically anyway) -- a fcking keystroke for the Fed or ECB.

What repressions? The Europeans are not asking for any restrictions on political activity, or media, or individual rights. They are merely giving a choice of taking the money on some conditions, or not taking the money and having to implement even rougher conditions.

the very implementation of these 'conditions' is a death blow to Greek national sovereignty (within that we find "political activity" and "individual rights"), and the way these negotiations have been carried out is best described as ritual humiliation -- or "fiscal waterboarding", prefers the Guardian.

Well, the alternative to humiliation is trust. And that is lacking at this point.

[ag]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

Fun fact: one of these conditions is that Greece change its laws so that shops stay open on Sunday.  But, of course, Germany has some of the strictest rules against opening on Sunday on the continent!  Medicine for thee, but not for me.

I would, most definitely, support foreigners forcing the German government to let the stores open on Sunday - and on Christmas Day, for that matter, as well. Unfortunately, there are no creditors who could do this. And it is not worth fighting WWIII over. Though, it is, most definitely, a more deserving cause than whatever started WWI.

[ag]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

Fun fact: one of these conditions is that Greece change its laws so that shops stay open on Sunday.  But, of course, Germany has some of the strictest rules against opening on Sunday on the continent!  Medicine for thee, but not for me.

I would, most definitely, support foreigners forcing the German government to let the stores open on Sunday - and on Christmas Day, for that matter, as well. Unfortunately, there are no creditors who could do this. And it is not worth fighting WWIII over. Though, it is, most definitely, a more deserving cause than whatever started WWI.

The funny thing is that yes, in a vacuum would be one of their more sensible proposals.  Stores should be open on Sunday!  But the fact that it's coming up as a non-negotiable demand is enough of a show of hypocrisy to make one conclude that perhaps it's not just the Greeks who are untrustworthy here.

The difference is that the Germans have demonstrated that they can survive and prosper, despite closing their stores on Sundays. The Greeks, in contrast, have not. If and when the Greeks find a way to pay for the luxury of keeping the stores closed, their parliament will have a chance to decide to switch it back.

You know, Athens has parts of the Parthenon and London has the rest. Arguably, there is value involved in having it all together. Given the circumstances, it is pretty clear that it should be Greeks selling the Parthenon to the Brits, and not the other way around. I am pretty sure Greeks could get a decent price for those stones. But, for whatever reasons, they do not offer to sell it - and I find that stupid.

[ag]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

Well, it is a bit like fox hunt, isn't it? Something both abominable  and wastefulthat rich people nevertheless enjoy, if they can afford it.

[ag]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

Well, it is a bit like fox hunt, isn't it? Something both abominable  and wastefulthat rich people nevertheless enjoy, if they can afford it.

Oh f-ck off... As a genetic part-ulsterman, the idea that Sunday closing is 'for rich people' is one of the strangest and most hilarious ideas I've ever heard. Clearly in Mexico or Russia they lack the tradition of Sabbatarianism so prevalent in parts of the British Isles (slowly diminishing as we speak).

But hey it's leisure, and we all know that only the rich can relax.

Well, it is designed so that the rich people can hold the poor down, isn't it?

And, hey, my ancestors were the ones who invented this idiotic tradition. Next you know, you will be advocating having the elevators run without pressing the button on the Sabbath

[ag]

To compare it to fox hunting is just... tone deaf at best.

Never assume the best It was deliberate, and, judging by your reaction, the tone was exactly the one intended

[ag]

To compare it to fox hunting is just... tone deaf at best.

Never assume the best It was deliberate, and, judging by your reaction, the tone was exactly the one intended

Ok. Fine.

But you need to explain how Sunday closing is a method by which "the rich can hold the poor down"... or am I assuming the best wrt to your words again?

Rich people have servants they can send to do the shopping on work days. The poor do not. Plus, reducing the number of workplaces, of course. This is one of the most efficient ways of ensuring the poor stay poor.

[ag]

One of my sources of confusion is why they're selling off the grid. I mean we can argue all day about whether public or private companies run electricity better, but surely a privatisation cash bonanza won't change the structural deficit at all

In all fairness, although I think people should be allowed a day off; I'm not sure why we have to force them to choose the Sunday.

As it is, labor legislation everywhere specifies that people should have a day off (as well as the length of the workweek, etc.). Nobody is forcing the Greeks to abandon that.

[ag]

Why don't people work literally 24 hours a day 7 days a week anyway? Isn't having a life sort of a luxury for rich people anyway? Poor people only exist to work.

The last time I looked, there was still unemployment.

Anyway, I guess you subscribe to the notion that "corporations are people". Because nobody is trying to force any physical human being to work 24/7.

[ag]

If you have a working class job (however defined) chances are you don't work Saturdays - which is why Saturday was traditionally the biggest day of the week for shopping in Britain - and if you do work Saturdays (i.e. if you're in retail) then you'll have a weekday off. Historically it was also the case the grocers sold a lot of their wares via delivery vans and in recent decades supermarkets are obviously open longer than normal work hours on weekdays...

You know, I did live for a year in Spain. It was horrible, not being able to buy necessities. Mercifully, there are always some immigrant (Chinese, or Ukrainian, or whatever) stores open illegally, selling you the toilet paper at double the price of a supermarket. And, yep, there were pretty working class people shopping there - having to pay extra for the benefit of those Churches.

[ag]

In any case, while I do think Sunday closings are actually really dumb that doesn't make the undemocratic method by which the Troika is fighting them any more palatable,

I can hardly find a more democratic way than a voluntary decision of Greek government and Greek parliament - and that is how these laws will be approved. The Greeks did have an option of not approving this things and introducing drachma tonight instead. It is their choice.

Enough.  Greeks are getting USD$100 billion in financing. Their banks would have all been bankrupt yesterday. There is no other country that has been given so much financial help in history, probably. All this moaning about "undemocratic imposition" is ridiculous. I would not at all mind my government to adopt a budget giving each Mexican a USD$20,000 dollars gift, or abolishing the income tax, or... whatever.  Unfortunately, you know, we do not have the money. Neither do the Greeks. There is nothing undemocratic in imposing budget constraint - or, for that matter, tradeoffs in exchange for their relaxation.

[ag]

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.