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Author Topic: Unofficial Setting Pro/Con List  (Read 569 times)
Leinad
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« on: July 24, 2015, 07:38:24 pm »

I'm fine with a South American game. It seems to be the consensus first-choice, and no one seems to dislike it that much.

BUT, can we really say for sure it's the best plan until we've fully looked at all the options? I think not. So, here's my pro/con analysis for, well, almost everything Evergreen had in her unofficial setting poll, and a few others I decided to add (because I can):

South America

Pros:
-It's novel, it's different.
-There's a small number of countries. In addition to the obvious fact that no one gets left out of Copa America, this means that every country has at least 1 MP and we can add more for the bigger ones.

Cons:
-It might be too different. The fact this is out of our Western element might lead it to either be dominated by South American members or turn into Atlasia with more exotic-sounding names.
-Us dedicated founding members would learn, but newer players might have a harder time figuring out what the heck we're doing in South America.

Question:
-Is the northern border for this game South America, or is it Latin America + Caribbean? Blair mentioned he'd like Cuba, and I'd like Jamaica if that's the case. But it would make more sense to be just the geographic South American region.

Europe

(I already wrote up a plan for a Euro game, by the way.)

Pros:
-It's different than Atlasia, but still familiar. A nice compromise, right?

Cons:
-Maybe it's still too familiar? I mean, a good bit of us are European, and many more of us follow the happenings over their a good bit.
-It's already close to a progressive fantasy, so it might be a little boring.

United States/North America (preferably post-fascist dictatorship)

Pros:
-The most familiar of all. No one, be it current players, new players, or the GM, will have any issues stemming from lack of knowledge.

Cons:
-Too familiar. Too similar to Atlasia. That could be helped a little by adding caveats (e.g. adding Canada, making it post-fascist dictatorship, etc.) but it's still kind of bland.

Canada (without the U.S.)

Pros:
-Maybe similar to Europe in familiarity to American users. As in, we know it, but it's not like an American game.

Cons:
-I'm having a hard time thinking of why this would be a better plan than Europe.

United Kingdom

Pros:
-Again, this is similar to Europe in that it's in between US and South America in familiarity, although it could be considered better in that it's more local.
-Two MPs for each of the 9 regions + 2 Scotland + 2 NI + 2 Wales = 24, not too far off from our target number.

Cons:
-Similar to Europe, it's fairly progressive already, and we all know it fairly well (it might just become exactly like the current UK parliament--not very original).

Independent Scotland

Pros:
-Familiar, but still something quite different.
-No real status quo for foreign policy, so we'd have a lot of room to work with on that.
-We could (either out loud or in our heads) read parliamentary proceedings in Scottish accents, which makes everything more fun.

Cons:
-Maybe it's too small of an area?
-It's also quite progressive, too.

Post-Soviet Russia

The pros and cons are similar to Scotland's, except a little less familiarity, less progressive, and no Scottish accents.

Australia (and maybe New Zealand, too)

Pros:
-Familiar, but not too familar.

Cons:
-No one has said anything in favor of this, actually.

Democratic China (or North Korea or Cuba)

Pros:
-We'd basically be getting to create a new democratic nation. That would be very fun, right?

Cons:
-Even less familiarity than South America.

Moon/Mars/Alpha Centauri/Generic Space Colony

Pros:
-It's in freaking SPACE!
-Complete clean slate.

Cons:
-Very much fantasy stuff. As much as some of us might enjoy worldbuilding, that's not really out purpose here.

Fictional Country

Pros:
-We can make it what we want.

Cons:
-Too much worldbuilding, probably.



Rough ranking from most familiar to least familiar:

1. United States/North America
2. United Kingdom
3. Canada
4. Australia
5. United Europe
6. Independent Scotland
7. South America
8. Post-Soviet Russia
9. Democratic China
10. Space
11. Fictional country

Analysis: 1, and maybe 2-5 (maybe 6?), are too familiar, 10-11 are too worldbuild-y, while at least 7-9 (maybe 6?) could have a dock in points for their lack of familiarity.



Alright, tell me if I got anything wrong, or missed anything. Also voice your opinion on what you think is best, what you think is acceptable (i.e. not first choice, but would still definitely play it), what's bad (i.e. not a fan of it at all, but it could be worse), and what's just pure crap (i.e. you wouldn't even play this).
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PJ
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2015, 07:54:02 pm »

please don't propose a moon colony parliament

This seems kind of pointless. The South American proposal is polling the best in evergreen's thread and is all but officially passed by the Provisional Parliament. The debate is over as far as I'm concerned.
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Trump-Yang '20
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2015, 08:19:00 pm »

please don't propose a moon colony parliament

This seems kind of pointless. The South American proposal is polling the best in evergreen's thread and is all but officially passed by the Provisional Parliament. The debate is over as far as I'm concerned.
No, not its not. In fact, last I checked, South America was tied with the UK.
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Leinad
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2015, 08:28:09 pm »

If any of these ideas have support, I'd back any of the following:

Europe - nice middle-ground between familiarity and something different. I'd probably sit as an MP from Norway.

South America - lots of people already seem in favor of this. I'd like to sit as an MP from Colombia (or Jamaica if we).

Democratic China/NK/Cuba - it would be fun to basically create a new democracy, right?

Independent Scotland - another fun system. Clean slate in foreign policy.

Australia - of existing English-speaking countries, this would be the best idea. I'd sit as an MP from South Australia/Adelaide.

Post-Soviet Russia - like the Democratic China plan, but more familiarity (although there's also an actual real-life record, which might not be a great thing).

Space - it's freaking SPACE! HOW FUN WOULD THAT BE?!?

And if the consensus takes a 180 and decides familiarity is the best path, I'd support Canada or UK over a US plan.
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PJ
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 08:35:53 pm »

please don't propose a moon colony parliament

This seems kind of pointless. The South American proposal is polling the best in evergreen's thread and is all but officially passed by the Provisional Parliament. The debate is over as far as I'm concerned.
No, not its not. In fact, last I checked, South America was tied with the UK.
Right now it's 14 South America 11 UK.
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Leinad
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2015, 08:40:14 pm »

please don't propose a moon colony parliament

This seems kind of pointless. The South American proposal is polling the best in evergreen's thread and is all but officially passed by the Provisional Parliament. The debate is over as far as I'm concerned.

Really?!?

Supporting South America just because it's the first idea they decided to talk about is silly and frankly undemocratic. Yes, it's leading in the poll, but with only 14 out of 26 supporting it (barely a majority), and UK, US+Can, and Europe within 3 votes behind (not sure what the margin of error is here, but if Atlasia polls and elections are anything to go by, it has to be more than 3/26).

Also, you said you didn't like a Moon/Mars/Alpha Centauri/Generic Space colony parliament, which makes a lot of sense given the cons I listed, but you didn't really point out what's wrong with any other ideas.

And as I said, supporting the South American plan to the extent of saying that even talking about alternatives is "pointless" is a bit silly. What can it hurt? We'll either get an even stronger consensus for South America, or decide that another plan is better.
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Trump-Yang '20
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2015, 08:41:28 pm »

please don't propose a moon colony parliament

This seems kind of pointless. The South American proposal is polling the best in evergreen's thread and is all but officially passed by the Provisional Parliament. The debate is over as far as I'm concerned.
No, not its not. In fact, last I checked, South America was tied with the UK.
Right now it's 14 South America 11 UK.
A close vote; we ought to have a run off and consider the other options more. I like South America too, but I feel that we are just rushing into this.
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2015, 08:59:43 pm »

Though some will accuse me of implicitly supporting certain proposals, I really want to emphasize that we didn't just finish worldbuilding in 24 hours. Like everything else about this sim so far, worldbuilding is done in real time. What I had hoped is that, once a majority votes in favour of a scenario, people start talking about other aspects.

I've admitted that the Speaker could adopt this motion, allow a vote on another, and have that replace the South America motion. But given that the Parliamentary vote is about 12-2, I think there's no need.

I encourage people to look up policies that seem interesting in Europe, Russia, China or elsewhere. We could very well incorporate some bits into our sim.
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PJ
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2015, 09:05:29 pm »

please don't propose a moon colony parliament

This seems kind of pointless. The South American proposal is polling the best in evergreen's thread and is all but officially passed by the Provisional Parliament. The debate is over as far as I'm concerned.

Really?!?

Supporting South America just because it's the first idea they decided to talk about is silly and frankly undemocratic. Yes, it's leading in the poll, but with only 14 out of 26 supporting it (barely a majority), and UK, US+Can, and Europe within 3 votes behind (not sure what the margin of error is here, but if Atlasia polls and elections are anything to go by, it has to be more than 3/26).

Also, you said you didn't like a Moon/Mars/Alpha Centauri/Generic Space colony parliament, which makes a lot of sense given the cons I listed, but you didn't really point out what's wrong with any other ideas.

And as I said, supporting the South American plan to the extent of saying that even talking about alternatives is "pointless" is a bit silly. What can it hurt? We'll either get an even stronger consensus for South America, or decide that another plan is better.

I've already posted what I think about these ideas in evergreen's thread. No offense meant by this, but I find the idea of a moon colony parliament to be ridiculous. Other alternatives have been discussed in multiple threads on this board. There's not going to be absolute consensus; we're obviously very divided, but the South American simulation is the one with the broadest support.

And why would we even factor in margin of error on a political simulation poll?

please don't propose a moon colony parliament

This seems kind of pointless. The South American proposal is polling the best in evergreen's thread and is all but officially passed by the Provisional Parliament. The debate is over as far as I'm concerned.
No, not its not. In fact, last I checked, South America was tied with the UK.
Right now it's 14 South America 11 UK.
A close vote; we ought to have a run off and consider the other options more. I like South America too, but I feel that we are just rushing into this.

I suppose this could be a possibility if there's a demand for it, but as Foucaulf said, the first proposal is winning 12-2, so I don't see the need for voting on alternative with less support.
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Leinad
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2015, 01:35:52 am »

I've admitted that the Speaker could adopt this motion, allow a vote on another, and have that replace the South America motion. But given that the Parliamentary vote is about 12-2, I think there's no need.

If you're out with friends, and ask if they want pizza, of course a majority will say yes, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't discuss other options. I find it absurd how everyone is so eager to accept the first good option and throw all the others out the window. I mean, no one should just marry the first person willing to date them, right?

I've already posted what I think about these ideas in evergreen's thread. No offense meant by this, but I find the idea of a moon colony parliament to be ridiculous. Other alternatives have been discussed in multiple threads on this board. There's not going to be absolute consensus; we're obviously very divided, but the South American simulation is the one with the broadest support.

And why would we even factor in margin of error on a political simulation poll?

No offense taken, because I was never advocating a moon colony. It was one in 11 proposals, including a couple other new ones that you didn't address, because you seemed to only notice the space proposal.

I wasn't advocating for a margin of error, either; my point was that a narrow lead in a non-binding poll is hardly evidence of a strong enough consensus to discourage alternative ideas.

I know that other alternatives have been discussed, but none have been debated on the floor of the provisional parliament, and I seem to be the only one who has a problem with that for some reason.

I suppose it isn't that big of a deal. I'm okay with South America. But I'm disturbed how the narrow consensus pick is so easily treated like the One True Parliament Setting.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2015, 09:00:51 am »

Yeah, I will say I'm slightly disappointed about how South America was chosen. If the North American proposal was Bill 1 instead of Bill 2, things might have been completely different.

Oh well...
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