Diplomacy Dreams

[themaninthejinnahcap]

Adjudication is coming, have no fear!

[themaninthejinnahcap]

 
Order Results:
   
Austria:
Austria: A bud - tri
Austria: A mos Holds
Austria: A pie - mar / Bounced with mar (1 against 1).
Austria: A sil - war
Austria: A stp - nwy / Bounced with nwg (1 against 1).
Austria: A tri - ven
Austria: F tys - wes
Austria: A ven - rom
Austria: A vie Holds
     
England:
England: F edi Holds
     
France:
France: A bel Supports A bur
France: F bre - mao
France: A bur Supports A bel
France: F cly - nwg / Failed because Germany: F nwg - nwy failed.
France: F lyo Supports F wes / Support cut by Move from Tuscany.
France: A mar Supports A bur / Support cut by Move from Piedmont.
France: F nth Supports A bel
France: F wes Supports F lyo / Support cut by Move from Tyrrhenian Sea. Dislodged from tys (2 against 1).
       
Germany:
Germany: F den - kie
Germany: F hol Supports F den - kie
Germany: A kie - ber
Germany: A mun Supports A ruh
Germany: F nwg - nwy / Bounced with stp (1 against 1).
Germany: A ruh Supports F hol
   
Turkey:
Turkey: F aeg - ion
Turkey: A apu Supports A rom - nap
Turkey: F con - aeg
Turkey: F ion - tys
Turkey: A rom - nap
Turkey: A rum Holds
Turkey: A sev Holds
Turkey: F tun Supports F tys - wes
Turkey: F tus - lyo / Bounced with lyo (1 against 1).

We are now in the Spring 1908 RETREAT Phase. The only retreat necessary is for France, F Wes. The deadline for this order will be at 10:00 PM EST / 2:00 AM UTC on Tuesday, April 23rd (EST)/Wednesday, April 24th (UTC).

After this is where things get more complicated. Gustaf wishes to leave the game and so I believe unless he changes his mind that we should go on hiatus in Fall 1908 until we find a substitute. I do not know what exactly has been going on in DMs between the players but I have asked Gustaf for some elaboration on the matter of the "vibe" of the game being unpleasant. In the mean time, I think it would be most prudent to hold off on long-form arguments about the matter in the thread. Better still would be discussion on possible substitutes and whether or not to extend the deadline.

[NOVA Green]

I believe the deadline should be extended until we have a quorum of players, since after all one country acting as a zombie (Especially if they have multiple SCs) would be extremely disruptive to game rules:

1.) Gustaf chooses to rejoin the game, since after all he was not kicked out for lack of responsiveness, but chose to leave voluntarily for whatever reason, which appears to have nothing to do with IRL circumstances, but rather just feelings about perhaps the format of the game, and perhaps the way he feels he has been treated by multiple players on this Game.

2.) A substitute player is found and selected (Although naturally the recruiting process might be a bit more difficult to once again find a third player for Germany, although on paper their military position is not impossible).

3.) If the international time zone issues are a major reason, I have long supported a (72) hour move rule as well as supporting a (48) hour retreat / build-disband rule.

4.) It sounds like GM would be willing to support that if we are looking for either a unanimous consent or majority consent rule order.

5.) Naturally it makes no sense to force retreat / disband orders while we do not have a current player representing Germany.

6.) If so, I will be the next to go immediately so that Turkey and the Ottomans can have their own "Private War", while they carve up the pieces of France and Germany to see who can race across the finish line first to build their giant "Phallic Temples in the Sky" and win an Atlas Solo Diplomacy Game as either the Austrians or the Ottomans.

Calling it quits until this matter is resolved.

Sorry guys and so long for thanks and all the fish...

More than willing to come back in, but yeah I stand with the International Posters who have been screwed over the most by the "Diplomacy on Meth" rules (Which I did agree to play btw).

[NOVA Green]

Should note that although currently am in a "so long and thanks for all the fish" mode and willing to resume game play, it is clear that Gustaf might have some legit grievances involving multiple players (Perhaps even myself included when it comes to "vibes"), and hoping he is willing to come back after a temporary hiatus:

Gustaf was sacrificed on the altars of Atlas Diplomacy as Germany...

His lack of communication was similar to that of INBU and as International Players got screwed by game rules.

These rules directly created major international communication issues with England and then later Germany at times needing real time response.

The lack of accommodation for players of international time zones appears to have been a major gap in the "Diplomacy on Meth Rules" agreed upon.

[themaninthejinnahcap]

I suppose the disposition of Germany could factor into the retreat, so very well. I will announce the hiatus right now.

If any of you know anyone on the forum (or even off it, too) who might want to play, please invite them so we can get this ball rolling again!

[NOVA Green]

I suppose the disposition of Germany could factor into the retreat, so very well. I will announce the hiatus right now.

If any of you know anyone on the forum (or even off it, too) who might want to play, please invite them so we can get this ball rolling again!

Please ping me if we get an alternate (Or if Gustaf should choose to return, although by from the sounds of what you have said that is probably unlikely), since my intent was not to just bail, but with a "neutral Germany" without a real player representing them would like just be divvied up by the nearest powers with Armies / Fleets in the area.

Sure one could argue that might be beneficial to me from a certain perspective, but really that's not how the game was meant to be played.

Haven't really looked at "alternate" strategies without a real actual person willing to take over the role of a surviving power which actually has some real assets (As opposed to the 1-Supply Center gig where it is relatively easy to just have the unit HOLD without seriously disrupting game balance) to see if there might be another way this has been dealt with in the past, but open to suggestions.

[GeorgiaModerate]

I suppose the disposition of Germany could factor into the retreat, so very well. I will announce the hiatus right now.

If any of you know anyone on the forum (or even off it, too) who might want to play, please invite them so we can get this ball rolling again!

Please ping me if we get an alternate (Or if Gustaf should choose to return, although by from the sounds of what you have said that is probably unlikely), since my intent was not to just bail, but with a "neutral Germany" without a real player representing them would like just be divvied up by the nearest powers with Armies / Fleets in the area.

Sure one could argue that might be beneficial to me from a certain perspective, but really that's not how the game was meant to be played.

Haven't really looked at "alternate" strategies without a real actual person willing to take over the role of a surviving power which actually has some real assets (As opposed to the 1-Supply Center gig where it is relatively easy to just have the unit HOLD without seriously disrupting game balance) to see if there might be another way this has been dealt with in the past, but open to suggestions.

I don't know of any strategies for taking over a viable power in the middle of the game other than waiting for a new player. The closest analogy I can think of is the 2-player variant of the game, in which one person plays AGT, the other plays EFR, and Italy is neutral and its territory cannot be entered.  I suppose something similar could be done with the German territory in this game, adjusting the winning threshold to a majority of the remaining supply centers.  But that would really distort the strategic layout of the game (and would it be just Germany, or also Holland and Scandinavia?)  I don't think it's a great option.

Actually I've just had a funny idea.  Let me think about this for a bit.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

For what it's worth, on playdiplomacy games cannot be interrupted by powers resign either voluntarily or automatically. The game carries on with the supply centers as deadweight. This doesn't say a whole lot since this is maybe my fourth or fifth game, but I have never played a game that started and ended with the same powers. Powers were often left vacant and the game resumed with its neighbors going for what remained. Obviously that isn't fair because this does not affect every remaining power equally, but even the fact that a substitute has entered will influence how they are approached by their neighbors.

If we can't get a replacement soon, then I can't see a fair way to resolve this besides either all survivors winning automatically or all survivors except for England winning automatically. (I'd prefer the latter approach here; ending with less than what you started with is not a "win" in my opinion and only two powers have actually been eliminated at this stage.)

[GeorgiaModerate]

For what it's worth, on playdiplomacy games cannot be interrupted by powers resign either voluntarily or automatically. The game carries on with the supply centers as deadweight. This doesn't say a whole lot since this is maybe my fourth or fifth game, but I have never played a game that started and ended with the same powers. Powers were often left vacant and the game resumed with its neighbors going for what remained. Obviously that isn't fair because this does not affect every remaining power equally, but even the fact that a substitute has entered will influence how they are approached by their neighbors.

If we can't get a replacement soon, then I can't see a fair way to resolve this besides either all survivors winning automatically or all survivors except for England winning automatically. (I'd prefer the latter approach here; ending with less than what you started with is not a "win" in my opinion and only two powers have actually been eliminated at this stage.)

Germany going into civil disorder would be consistent with the rules. As you say it’s not fair to all players (obviously it would disadvantage me) but those are the breaks. Or we could just call it a draw. I’ve always thought that a draw should include all survivors, whether they have 1 center or 17. But the mention of England raises a thought: if IBNU is still interested in playing, what about letting him take over Germany while England goes into civil disorder? (This isn’t the funny idea that struck me earlier - still need to think about that one).

[NOVA Green]

For what it's worth, on playdiplomacy games cannot be interrupted by powers resign either voluntarily or automatically. The game carries on with the supply centers as deadweight. This doesn't say a whole lot since this is maybe my fourth or fifth game, but I have never played a game that started and ended with the same powers. Powers were often left vacant and the game resumed with its neighbors going for what remained. Obviously that isn't fair because this does not affect every remaining power equally, but even the fact that a substitute has entered will influence how they are approached by their neighbors.

If we can't get a replacement soon, then I can't see a fair way to resolve this besides either all survivors winning automatically or all survivors except for England winning automatically. (I'd prefer the latter approach here; ending with less than what you started with is not a "win" in my opinion and only two powers have actually been eliminated at this stage.)

Germany going into civil disorder would be consistent with the rules. As you say it’s not fair to all players (obviously it would disadvantage me) but those are the breaks. Or we could just call it a draw. I’ve always thought that a draw should include all survivors, whether they have 1 center or 17. But the mention of England raises a thought: if IBNU is still interested in playing, what about letting him take over Germany while England goes into civil disorder? (This isn’t the funny idea that struck me earlier - still need to think about that one).

GM--- this is a brilliant suggestion and could just give you a "virtual kiss" for thinking outside the box.

IF (and a big if) IBNU is interested he would have at minimum the same number (Or unless my math is wrong more supply centers than at the peak of the English Empire).

Naturally, I suspect serious accommodations would need to be made to allow his time zone disadvantage and allow communications with other powers.

Sure, he may or may not have a grudge against me for my previous attacks, but willing to take that lump if need be.

Now that you brought it up GM, another thought would be to look at players who were eliminated from the game who might consider coming back.

If The Mikado is interested perhaps he could play Germany.

I believe Kuumo has some IRL stuff he is working through based upon a couple PMs we exchanged recently, but again coming back into the game as a power with extra SCs compared to the max numbers achieved as Italy might be of interest, if he is able to perhaps have a slightly slower paced timeline than our current game rules.

Thoughts All???

[GeorgiaModerate]

If Gustaf is definitely leaving, I think the first choice is to find a replacement Germany, either by advertising here (Jesse could change the thread title again) or seeing if one of the eliminated players would like to take over, or having IBNU switch to Germany.  If a replacement can't be found, then either Germany could go into civil disorder...or we could try the following amusing idea.  This is an initial framework, so feel free to suggest modifications.

What if we "partitioned" Germany between AFT, similar to the partitions of Poland?  It has 6
units, which neatly divides between 3 powers, and 7 centers; NOVA could have the extra center, since he's one behind A & T; this would give us 11 centers each.  The way this would work would be to somehow choose who gets which centers, perhaps with a draft, i.e. we each pick a center in turn until they're all taken.  The new power would get ownership of that German supply center and replace the German unit in it with one of their own of the same type.  The German fleet in NWG would go with Norway, the army in Ruhr with Denmark, and Sweden would have no unit assigned to it.  Then we continue with the game as normal.  This would be a bit chaotic at first but probably fun.  It would definitely be interesting.

A variation of this idea: since AF are adjacent to Germany and I'm not, my new centers and units would be disconnected from the rest of my territory.  So an alternative would be to split Germany between AF (give France 4 centers and Austria 3), while they each cede me one non-home supply center and unit to compensate for it.  Rome and Spain (with the fleet set to retreat from Wes) are obvious possibilities, but this could be negotiated.  This would again give all three of us 11 centers.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

If Gustaf is definitely leaving, I think the first choice is to find a replacement Germany, either by advertising here (Jesse could change the thread title again) or seeing if one of the eliminated players would like to take over, or having IBNU switch to Germany.  If a replacement can't be found, then either Germany could go into civil disorder...or we could try the following amusing idea.  This is an initial framework, so feel free to suggest modifications.

What if we "partitioned" Germany between AFT, similar to the partitions of Poland?  It has 6
units, which neatly divides between 3 powers, and 7 centers; NOVA could have the extra center, since he's one behind A & T; this would give us 11 centers each.  The way this would work would be to somehow choose who gets which centers, perhaps with a draft, i.e. we each pick a center in turn until they're all taken.  The new power would get ownership of that German supply center and replace the German unit in it with one of their own of the same type.  The German fleet in NWG would go with Norway, the army in Ruhr with Denmark, and Sweden would have no unit assigned to it.  Then we continue with the game as normal.  This would be a bit chaotic at first but probably fun.  It would definitely be interesting.

A variation of this idea: since AF are adjacent to Germany and I'm not, my new centers and units would be disconnected from the rest of my territory.  So an alternative would be to split Germany between AF (give France 4 centers and Austria 3), while they each cede me one non-home supply center and unit to compensate for it.  Rome and Spain (with the fleet set to retreat from Wes) are obvious possibilities, but this could be negotiated.  This would again give all three of us 11 centers.

Very interesting ideas. I do agree that our first order of business should be seeing if we can get another German player, but if too much time passes, I'm on board with either of these partition plans.

[themaninthejinnahcap]

I am putting feelers out there for new players, we'll see how it plays out over the next few days. If nothing comes our way then this partition idea is certainly my preference so long as everyone is interested (as it seems you are).

IBNU is no longer involved in the game, I told him I could keep him on a HOLD pattern since he has some real life stuff keeping him busy and he didn't even respond to that, so I presume he's far too busy to jump back into the game. I messaged Mikado for now.

[Gustaf]

I don't know who else would be available to substitute. It's also pretty late in the game for people to be dropping out.

Most importantly, the game is not a revolving door and I can't help but feel frustrated every time someone drops out. I know Jesse's tired as well and it is evident that people aren't reading the rules or the first pages of this thread. Commitment and deadlines matter and they should be accounted for before somebody joins a game. It's already been explained why leaving the game while you have centers in play is extremely unfair to both the game moderator and the other players.

Gustaf, you haven't been here very long and you took over for another person who called it quits. The only choices are you staying in the game and sticking to deadlines or putting the game on hiatus (again) until Germany #3 signs up, whenever that might be.

Well, maybe part of the reason people drop out is that you're an unpleasant person to play with.

I want to make clear that my complaint is not about the deadlines. I've played Diplomacy games before, including on here, and simply did not expect the atmosphere to be what it was. So I guess I didn't know what I signed up for in that sense.

I have entered orders for the next phase but it does sound like you're better off finding someone else willing to play this way. 

How have I been unpleasant? I've been cordial in all my correspondences with the players, and I'm simply reemphasizing a point that's been made before in this thread when these incidents occurred as well as speaking up for my personal friend who registered on the forum specifically to host this tournament, and put in considerable time needed to do so.

I'll take the heat for that, because the OP is not in any way at fault for the "atmosphere" (not entirely sure what this refers to) of the game.

As I've told him, I have no criticism of the moderator or the way game decisions have been handled. Those are not the reasons I have lost interest.

To the thread: it does sound like you have various alternate paths that seem better than me weighing the game down. Thank you to those who have reached out to me.

I'm also happy to "onboard" a new player taking over for me if there is any desire for that.

[NOVA Green]

I am putting feelers out there for new players, we'll see how it plays out over the next few days. If nothing comes our way then this partition idea is certainly my preference so long as everyone is interested (as it seems you are).

IBNU is no longer involved in the game, I told him I could keep him on a HOLD pattern since he has some real life stuff keeping him busy and he didn't even respond to that, so I presume he's far too busy to jump back into the game. I messaged Mikado for now.

Any updates from The Mikado?

I understand he has played this game a couple times before, but certainly as a reliable player, who might have faced an early "Gangbang" scenario, plus possibly a couple strategic failures (Which was before I entered the game), perhaps he might be interested in gaining a "Fresh Start" so the speak.

Naturally in these situations one should assume that prior grudges are not active, and will enhance the diplomatic conversations, while also having a player who had played in the past.