Israel to Refugees: Go Back to Africa or Go to Prison

[Jacobtm]

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/toughening-its-stance-toward-migrants-israel-pushes-africans-to-leave/2015/05/14/e1637bce-f350-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html

Israel is the country most active in the fight against the flood of 3rd world migrants who would like to flood every 1st world country, we can learn a lot from what they do, and how it works out.

Amazing that American "conservatives" fall all over themselves to "support Israel" yet believe having similar policies to this in the U.S. is unthinkable.

[ag]

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/toughening-its-stance-toward-migrants-israel-pushes-africans-to-leave/2015/05/14/e1637bce-f350-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html

Israel is the country most active in the fight against the flood of 3rd world migrants who would like to flood every 1st world country, we can learn a lot from what they do, and how it works out.

Amazing that American "conservatives" fall all over themselves to "support Israel" yet believe having similar policies to this in the U.S. is unthinkable.

Yeah, Israel has always been good in fighting the Untermenschen. They sure know how the eastern hordes have to be dealt with. Had great teachers, you know.

I really have to object to those guys calling themselves Jewish, though.

[DavidB.]

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/toughening-its-stance-toward-migrants-israel-pushes-africans-to-leave/2015/05/14/e1637bce-f350-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html

Israel is the country most active in the fight against the flood of 3rd world migrants who would like to flood every 1st world country, we can learn a lot from what they do, and how it works out.

Amazing that American "conservatives" fall all over themselves to "support Israel" yet believe having similar policies to this in the U.S. is unthinkable.

Ok. Firstly, many American conservatives actually do support such policies. Secondly, there are quite some differences:

- Israel has a "somewhat" less extensive border with Egypt than America has with Mexico.
- Israel drafts people, the U.S. doesn't, so it would be extremely expensive to deploy enough border security personnel along this (already much more extensive) American-Mexican border.
- In the U.S., there are millions of illegals. Even if one would want to deport them all, it would be a hell of an effort. In Israel, the situation is clearer. The number of illegals is limited. Most of them reside in southern Tel Aviv (around the New Central Bus Station) or in "development towns".
- In the U.S., many agricultural companies depend on the labor of illegal workers. In Israel, illegals often either don't work or work like "nomads", meaning that they have different jobs every time.

In short, the situations are not really comparable. What is comparable, however, is that neither the U.S. nor Israel have a moral obligation to pamper illegal immigrants, or even to allow them to stay. Not sure, though, if your thread is actually serious about the differences between these countries or just another thread for Israel-bashing. In the first case, I'm totally down to engage in a discussion. In the second case... nope.

I really have to object to those guys calling themselves Jewish, though.

I really have to object to you calling yourself Jewish. I wouldn't count you in a minyan, but then again, you'd never go to (legitimate) shul anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

[MalaspinaGold]

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/toughening-its-stance-toward-migrants-israel-pushes-africans-to-leave/2015/05/14/e1637bce-f350-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html

Israel is the country most active in the fight against the flood of 3rd world migrants who would like to flood every 1st world country, we can learn a lot from what they do, and how it works out.

Amazing that American "conservatives" fall all over themselves to "support Israel" yet believe having similar policies to this in the U.S. is unthinkable.

Ok. Firstly, many American conservatives actually do support such policies. Secondly, there are quite some differences:

- Israel has a "somewhat" less extensive border with Egypt than America has with Mexico.
- Israel drafts people, the U.S. doesn't, so it would be extremely expensive to deploy enough border security personnel along this (already much more extensive) American-Mexican border.
- In the U.S., there are millions of illegals. Even if one would want to deport them all, it would be a hell of an effort. In Israel, the situation is clearer. The number of illegals is limited. Most of them reside in southern Tel Aviv (around the New Central Bus Station) or in "development towns".
- In the U.S., many agricultural companies depend on the labor of illegal workers. In Israel, illegals often either don't work or work like "nomads", meaning that they have different jobs every time.

In short, the situations are not really comparable. What is comparable, however, is that neither the U.S. nor Israel have a moral obligation to pamper illegal immigrants, or even to allow them to stay. Not sure, though, if your thread is actually serious about the differences between these countries or just another thread for Israel-bashing. In the first case, I'm totally down to engage in a discussion. In the second case... nope.

I really have to object to those guys calling themselves Jewish, though.

I really have to object to you calling yourself Jewish. I wouldn't count you in a minyan, but then again, you'd never go to (legitimate) shul anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

To be fair, being Jewish is not really about being religious (which I'm sure everyone bar Haredim can agree on given... history.)

OTOH, the chances of ag's grandchildren being Jewish is about as likely as you voting for Meretz/Hadash/non-terribles so it's not like he matters that much anyway in the long-term.

[MaxQue]

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/toughening-its-stance-toward-migrants-israel-pushes-africans-to-leave/2015/05/14/e1637bce-f350-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html

Israel is the country most active in the fight against the flood of 3rd world migrants who would like to flood every 1st world country, we can learn a lot from what they do, and how it works out.

Amazing that American "conservatives" fall all over themselves to "support Israel" yet believe having similar policies to this in the U.S. is unthinkable.

Not sure, though, if your thread is actually serious about the differences between these countries or just another thread for Israel-bashing. In the first case, I'm totally down to engage in a discussion. In the second case... nope.

From him, it's a third case. US bashing due to being open to immigration (he believes than non-whites have a lower IQ).

[Jacobtm]

Different groups of course do have different IQ scores.

That isn't to say "whites" have the highest scores though. East Asians and Jews beat them as groups. And different "white" groups have different scores.

https://jaymans.wordpress.com/jaymans-race-inheritance-and-iq-f-a-q-f-r-b/

[ag]

I notice that I have been reported for "anti-semitism". Not only I am a Jew, but, if anything, it is the original post that is fundamentally anti-semitic. I guess, I should be reporting that one, should I?

[ag]

I really have to object to you calling yourself Jewish. I wouldn't count you in a minyan, but then again, you'd never go to (legitimate) shul anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Well, I would not go to any shul, legitimate or otherwise: I do not believe in god Clearly, we deny each other's Jewishness. Fine by me.

[ag]

A big chunk of my family was killed by nazis,

My grandfather was born in Uman. Ever heard of that little town? His grandma had a dozen kids. Two had moved to Moscow before the war. The rest, and their entire families, were wiped out. On the other side of the family we had quite a few relatives in Alitus. The town was occupied on June 22, 1941: the first day of the German invasion. After the war no trace could be found. All of us had relatives killed by the Nazis: you do not have a monopoly there. This is precisely why I find the original post so disgusting.

"Eastern hordes", my ass.

[ag]

(I'll even stand with ag if someone tells him to "go back to Ukraine", like yesterday)

I should mention, that I am not from Ukraine and have only been in Ukraine for, may be, a total of couple of months in my life, as a tourist. Last time was back in 1989.  And the guy told me to go back to the "Ukraine thread", not to Ukraine

In any case you do not have to "stand by me". I am perfectly capable of standing alone.

[ag]

and literally nobody can legitimately call Israeli Jews nazis for defending themselves in order for the very same thing not to happen again.

I thought the discussion here was about the treatment of migrants, not of the Palestinian thread. Are the poor African migrants the ones "threatening Israel" and leading "to the same thing happening again"?

Frankly, if this is not a carbon copy of the Nazi rhetoric about the Jews, I do not know what is.

[ag]

I should be honest. I am at a point of exploding. Perhaps, indeed, I should confine myself to the news threads about Sri Lanka, Bihar, Guatemala, etc. My capacity of talking with "white people" is, probably, at its limit.

The nakedness of xenophobia that has been swamping these boards is extremely dispiriting. I used to believe that, indeed, after the Holocaust of the last World War something like this would never be possible again, that, at least, the "civilized West" got immunized against a repetition. Alas, the immunity seems nearly gone. I am increasingly convinced, that we will have to live it again in our time. And a lot of you guys will be later saying that "you did not know" and "you never imagined". Unfortunately, I do not believe in god you'd have to respond to.

[ag]

OTOH, the chances of ag's grandchildren being Jewish is about as likely as you voting for Meretz/Hadash/non-terribles so it's not like he matters that much anyway in the long-term.

Well, at least by traditional definitions, my children are more Jewish than myself And they are girls Every night I wish them "a gute nakht, shlof gezund" and hear back "a dank" (admittedly, this is a substantial chunk of Yiddish I can produce, but still). On my book shelves there is a complete collection of Sholom Aleykhem (in Russian, alas). More importantly, of course, I wear no uniform and have no desire to put one on. Hopefully, there will never be an ispravnik in my family: but only the rootless cosmopolitans, as the late SOB used to call us.

That last, in fact, is what, long-term matters a lot more than whether they call themselves Jews.

[MalaspinaGold]

a) You know nothing about human nature
b) You do not understand rootless cosmopolitanism. People only "choose" to be rootless cosompolitans when they have no other choice. Nonharedi Jews today have two options: assimilation and "nationation". Hence there will be no "rootless cosmopolitanism" for the Jews anytime soon.

I stand by my previous statement of course. Wishing your children goodnight in Yiddish may be sweet, but sustain a people it does not do.

[Zioneer]

What if Israel instead treated the refugees/illegal immigrants well, with the object of weakening antisemitism among that population? Seems like a cheaper, easier solution to me.

By treating them well I don't mean treating them like kings, but some kind of accommodation and sympathy towards them might work.

EDIT: Though I do have an uninformed opinion, so don't mind me.

[ag]

a) You know nothing about human nature
b) You do not understand rootless cosmopolitanism. People only "choose" to be rootless cosompolitans when they have no other choice. Nonharedi Jews today have two options: assimilation and "nationation". Hence there will be no "rootless cosmopolitanism" for the Jews anytime soon.

I stand by my previous statement of course. Wishing your children goodnight in Yiddish may be sweet, but sustain a people it does not do.

I, obviously, have a choice. I chose to live in Mexico: could have chosen, say, Australia, or Turkey. And I choose not to care about whatever the abstraction you call the people. If my daughter marries a Nigerian and moves to China, I will be perfectly happy. If she starts talking about "preserving the people", I will be wondering where I failed.

When I was a kid, I had my own nationalist stage. I would pester my grandpa with this Jewish people stuff. And he, the last man in the family still to be able to converse Yiddish, would always respond: "I am an internationalist". He was a much wiser man than I will ever be.

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

[politicus]

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

You have made that clear numerous times, but it makes you an anomaly among modern Jews. Most people prefer to have a home land.

[mencken]

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

So you identify Jewishness with a strategy that has a 1,900 year success rate at leading to persecution and ethnic cleansing? How delightful.

[ag]

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

So you identify Jewishness with a strategy that has a 1,900 year success rate at leading to persecution and ethnic cleansing? How delightful.

Well, you know full well that without that strategy there would have been no Jews for the last 1500 years

It is not strategy in my case. It is my way of life. And you, it seems, justify persecution and ethnic cleansing as directed towards me, personally.

[ag]

For me Jewishness is in the rootlessness. I identify with others, whose families pass through countries and nations without taking a root.

You have made that clear numerous times, but it makes you an anomaly among modern Jews. Most people prefer to have a home land.

I am Mexican. Homeland enough for me.

[Gustaf]

My dad read a quite interesting book about this which argued that the peculiar Jewish culture (or rather the culture that most in the West now associate with Jews) arose from being in the diaspora (being rootless cosmopolitans).

The book basically points out that the warrior tribe of the Old Testament is very different from stereotypical elderly doctors and pianists that symbolize modern Western Jewry. It then argues that the creation of Israel is getting it back to the old warrior ways. I think the theory has to do with having a land makes you less nice and more aggressive or something.

Given the context of the Holocaust that isn't necessarily an argument against Israel though, naturally.

[Hnv1]

Different groups of course do have different IQ scores.

That isn't to say "whites" have the highest scores though. East Asians and Jews beat them as groups. And different "white" groups have different scores.

https://jaymans.wordpress.com/jaymans-race-inheritance-and-iq-f-a-q-f-r-b/

Yeah that's a crappy argument, IQ tests are heavily skewed for people with formal education and other "privileges". Africa has a turgid educational system hence why people there score so low. Also, Jews test for higher IQ mostly because all over the world Jews are an elite economic group with emphasis on education, in Israel where you have economic variety among Jews you'll find a wide spectrum.

so different groups might score differently but you can't conclude anything regarding the basic intelligence of group members by IQ tests

[ag]

A big chunk of my family was killed by nazis,

My grandfather was born in Uman. Ever heard of that little town? His grandma had a dozen kids. Two had moved to Moscow before the war. The rest, and their entire families, were wiped out. On the other side of the family we had quite a few relatives in Alitus. The town was occupied on June 22, 1941: the first day of the German invasion. After the war no trace could be found. All of us had relatives killed by the Nazis: you do not have a monopoly there. This is precisely why I find the original post so disgusting.

"Eastern hordes", my ass.

You clearly consider this so problematic that you think this should happen again to our people. That doesn't sound logical.

It is you, not me, who is advocating the worldview, that will, I am afraid, in our time lead to a new Auschwitz. Of course, you think that, somehow, you will be on the outside of the crematorium. Everything may be logical in your worldview. But nevertheless, disgusting.

[ag]

You were the one who pointed at the "strange" connotation of his comment, not I. I only replied to you. Please at least try to stay honest.

There, for once, I was just having fun

[ag]

I'm not standing with you because I think you're not capable of standing alone, and I'm certainly not standing with you because I would like you (frankly, I really don't), but because it's my duty as a Jew to stand with another Jew if he is attacked for his Jewishness, even if that's not entirely sure. Ahavat Yisrael comes first. Of course, that is a major difference between the two of us.

Please, find another place to stand. Trust me, yo are a very undesirable company.