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  Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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Author Topic: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread  (Read 102370 times)
ingemann
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« Reply #800 on: November 07, 2015, 01:58:56 pm »

Do you have a chart of countries by refugees per capita?

No but I found this graph with google (warning it comes from Gates of Vienna).

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Tender Branson
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« Reply #801 on: November 07, 2015, 02:05:47 pm »

Austria already has #s for the 3rd quarter:

~30.000

http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Asylwesen/statistik/files/2015/Asylstatistik_September_2015.pdf

After 10.000 in Q1 and 18.000 in Q2 (incl. final numbers).

A total of 85.000-90.000 asylum seekers alone are now expected for 2015. That's on top of the regular immigration surplus from other EU countries and the world of ca. 60.000 people this year.

Or put in a different way: the population will grow by a record 1.5% this year (and migration accounts for 99% of this growth and natural increase 1%).
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DavidB.
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« Reply #802 on: November 07, 2015, 02:08:27 pm »

Thanks for this, Tender and ingemann. It seems Austria gets even more applications than Germany and Sweden, relatively, and whereas the high number of migrants in Sweden and Germany seems due to open-border policies, the high number in Austria is largely due to a combination of socio-economic prosperity and geographical location.

At the same time, I don't really understand the chart Tender posted, since it shows that many migrants apply for asylum seeker status in Hungary - but in reality, almost everybody travels along to Western Europe, right? Nobody wants to stay there. So how is the number that large?
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ingemann
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« Reply #803 on: November 07, 2015, 02:13:08 pm »

Thanks for this, Tender and ingemann. It seems Austria gets even more applications than Germany and Sweden, relatively, and whereas the high number of migrants in Sweden and Germany seems due to open-border policies, the high number in Austria is largely due to a combination of socio-economic prosperity and geographical location.

At the same time, I don't really understand the chart Tender posted, since it shows that many migrants apply for asylum seeker status in Hungary - but in reality, almost everybody travels along to Western Europe, right? Nobody wants to stay there. So how is the number that large?

It just show where the refugees are registed first. Hungary registed people early on, before they gave up, Greece and Italy had already to large extent given up. It's also why the Austrian numbers are so high compared to Sweden and Germany.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #804 on: November 07, 2015, 02:17:00 pm »

Thanks for this, Tender and ingemann. It seems Austria gets even more applications than Germany and Sweden, relatively, and whereas the high number of migrants in Sweden and Germany seems due to open-border policies, the high number in Austria is largely due to a combination of socio-economic prosperity and geographical location.

At the same time, I don't really understand the chart Tender posted, since it shows that many migrants apply for asylum seeker status in Hungary - but in reality, almost everybody travels along to Western Europe, right? Nobody wants to stay there. So how is the number that large?

Remember that these are Q1 & Q2 figures that do not take into account yet the massive out-movements from Hungary during the recent months, with Orban's hardline policies.

I assume that the people moving into Hungary in the first half of 2015 were registered at the camps there and most filed for asylum, but with Germany's "welcome policy" soon afterwards they moved to Germany and further north.

I would further assume that the initial asylum application numbers for Hungary will come to a standstill in Q4, because no migrant will set foot into Hungary anymore because of Orban's policies ...
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DavidB.
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« Reply #805 on: November 07, 2015, 02:30:26 pm »

I didn't know that people who travel on to other countries were registering themselves in different countries earlier on their journey. In that case, it is hard to derive any meaning from these figures and it seems like Austria's numbers have been inflated, even if many people are, indeed, staying in Austria.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #806 on: November 07, 2015, 02:33:51 pm »

Currently, 62.000 asylum seekers in Austria are getting government aid (usually, the basic minimum aid that every person incl. Austrian citizens who often worked years and paid into the system are getting => 850 a month).

As I've posted above, this number is expected to increase to around 85.000 by the end of the year, because in October alone there have been 11.000 asylum applications here.

http://orf.at/stories/2307874/2307862

Also, a look at the new crime statistics from Jan.-June 2015:

There have been 83 murders (incl. attempts) in the first 6 months of 2015, of which 45 were committed by foreigners. Of the foreigners, 16 were asylum seekers.

In other words:

There are 7.430.000 Austrian citizens who committed 38 murders.

There are 1.210.000 foreigners in Austria who committed 45 murders.

There are 62.000 asylum seekers in Austria who committed 16 murders.

The murder rates (per 100.000 people)Sad

Austrian citizens: 0.5
Foreigners: 3.7
Asylum seekers: 25.8

http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXV/AB/AB_05631/imfname_463492.pdf
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DavidB.
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« Reply #807 on: November 07, 2015, 02:41:51 pm »

But they're all rocket scientists, they will make up for that Smiley
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #808 on: November 07, 2015, 02:47:05 pm »

But they're all rocket scientists, they will make up for that Smiley

1-5% of them probably are (or are smart in some way), but the others are likely to end up as either a drag on society who are going to create a ton of problems, or it will take a huge effort to integrate these hordes of young, unskilled males into our labour forces. I mean, who's going to hire a semi-illiterate Afghan/Iraqi/Syrian/Eritrean 18-year old who cannot speak proper German and has never attended a trade school or some other school that is required for most of Austria's jobs these days, when there are 1000s of skilled Austrians waiting out there to get the same job ?
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« Reply #809 on: November 07, 2015, 02:50:23 pm »

Have they been surveyed on their skills? I assumed it was mainly the relatively wealthy ones who could afford to pay smugglers...
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #810 on: November 07, 2015, 02:57:58 pm »

Have they been surveyed on their skills? I assumed it was mainly the relatively wealthy ones who could afford to pay smugglers...

So what ?

The skills assessment for 1000s of asylum seekers costs what ? ... Money.

The language courses for 1000s of asylum seekers who cannot speak proper German costs what ? ... Money.

Do you expect a Syrian middle-class refugee who enters the labour force to talk English with an Austrian customer ?

As hard as it is to say, these people that are coming in are a big drain on the labour market system (which has to pay for these assessment tests, and then they often move on to Germany and the tests were useless and a waste of money) and the social safety net.

They are costing us way more money than they would ever bring into the system and could end up as an unnecessary competition for Austrian unemployed who are currently looking for jobs that are already getting scarcer and scarcer.

Bottom line: These people that are coming in by the droves now are a pain in the ass for many reasons.
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ingemann
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« Reply #811 on: November 07, 2015, 03:09:47 pm »

Have they been surveyed on their skills? I assumed it was mainly the relatively wealthy ones who could afford to pay smugglers...

Here's some numbers in Danish

In short the Syrian refugees Denmark received 1999-2006 17% had a tertiary education and 5% had some kind of practical education. The number for other refugee groups in Denmark was 16% and 10%.

Also many or their tertiary education are not recognised in European countries, especially as the refugees often lack evidence for their education.

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Gunnar Larsson
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« Reply #812 on: November 07, 2015, 03:14:41 pm »

Have they been surveyed on their skills? I assumed it was mainly the relatively wealthy ones who could afford to pay smugglers...

So what ?

The skills assessment for 1000s of asylum seekers costs what ? ... Money.

The language courses for 1000s of asylum seekers who cannot speak proper German costs what ? ... Money.

Do you expect a Syrian middle-class refugee who enters the labour force to talk English with an Austrian customer ?

As hard as it is to say, these people that are coming in are a big drain on the labour market system (which has to pay for these assessment tests, and then they often move on to Germany and the tests were useless and a waste of money) and the social safety net.

They are costing us way more money than they would ever bring into the system and could end up as an unnecessary competition for Austrian unemployed who are currently looking for jobs that are already getting scarcer and scarcer.

Bottom line: These people that are coming in by the droves now are a pain in the ass for many reasons.

So... they will be unemployed and they will take your jobs. Perhaps an assessment of the logical skills of the natives is in order?
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #813 on: November 07, 2015, 03:20:40 pm »

Have they been surveyed on their skills? I assumed it was mainly the relatively wealthy ones who could afford to pay smugglers...

So what ?

The skills assessment for 1000s of asylum seekers costs what ? ... Money.

The language courses for 1000s of asylum seekers who cannot speak proper German costs what ? ... Money.

Do you expect a Syrian middle-class refugee who enters the labour force to talk English with an Austrian customer ?

As hard as it is to say, these people that are coming in are a big drain on the labour market system (which has to pay for these assessment tests, and then they often move on to Germany and the tests were useless and a waste of money) and the social safety net.

They are costing us way more money than they would ever bring into the system and could end up as an unnecessary competition for Austrian unemployed who are currently looking for jobs that are already getting scarcer and scarcer.

Bottom line: These people that are coming in by the droves now are a pain in the ass for many reasons.

So... they will be unemployed and they will take your jobs. Perhaps an assessment of the logical skills of the natives is in order?

No, I said they are currently primarily an unnecessary drag on our social safety net and could end up later as an unnecessary competition to Austrian unemployed.

Which means they are costing us more money now and likely in the future, because they and some Austrian unemployed cannot get the jobs that are getting scarcer ... reckless mass immigration leads to all kinds of problems.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #814 on: November 07, 2015, 03:28:41 pm »

There's also an English term for this:

* cutthroat competition
* predatory competition
* destructive competition

... primarily in lower-paying sectors of the economy. And then some bosses will eventually turn to "cheap labour" and wage dumping because Austrians are getting too expensive and they hire the cheap migrants. Which leads us to semi-slavery ... No sane leftist wants this, right ? But they are creating exactly these situations with their reckless immigration philosophy. And the 1000s of asylum seekers who cannot work ? They are sitting at home doing nothing and often become violent. Another reason why they should remain out of the country. Rather return to, fight for & rebuild their countries, rather than wrecking or destabilising ours.
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Swedish Austerity Cheese
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« Reply #815 on: November 08, 2015, 06:10:58 am »

But Sweden, what about your duty to help all the people in the world? I think you simply have to place those refugees in private homes. Anyone that has more than 50 square meters to themselves can surely house a couple of migrants.

That was actually a recent proposal from the Greens here...

Source?

Of course!(In Swedish I'm afraid)
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Swedish Austerity Cheese
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« Reply #816 on: November 08, 2015, 06:44:51 am »

I'm sorry to tell you this, the Swedish government may not mean to sound like they're begging, but they do, in a real pathetic way

To me it sounds more like whining, than begging, but I would agree with the fact that it does seem rather pathetic.

To answer your original question, as to why the Swedish government is asking for something they will never get; my analysis is that it's a desperate attempt to get themselves out of a tricky situation of painting themselves into a corner on the immigration issue. On the one hand the government has committed itself to helping all asylum seekers and is thus not willing to adopt more strict limitations than those they agreed to recently with the opposition (bar the Left and Sweden Democrats) but on the other hand they're also out of money to pay for more immigration and are not willing to make any substantial cuts to other areas to finance the increased costs. The idea that they can appeal (or shame) other EU countries into doing more is their last hope of get out of that predicament.

It's pretty futile, but they have to signal the Swedish people that they are doing something at least.

 
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DavidB.
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« Reply #817 on: November 08, 2015, 07:06:49 am »

The tricky thing for Sweden is that asylum seekers probably won't care so much for Sweden's problems in terms of finding proper accommodations and financing everything. Due to its reputation and its laws, Sweden will likely remain a destination more attractive to migrants than, say, Denmark or Finland.
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ingemann
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« Reply #818 on: November 08, 2015, 10:15:46 am »

I'm sorry to tell you this, the Swedish government may not mean to sound like they're begging, but they do, in a real pathetic way

To me it sounds more like whining, than begging, but I would agree with the fact that it does seem rather pathetic.

To answer your original question, as to why the Swedish government is asking for something they will never get; my analysis is that it's a desperate attempt to get themselves out of a tricky situation of painting themselves into a corner on the immigration issue. On the one hand the government has committed itself to helping all asylum seekers and is thus not willing to adopt more strict limitations than those they agreed to recently with the opposition (bar the Left and Sweden Democrats) but on the other hand they're also out of money to pay for more immigration and are not willing to make any substantial cuts to other areas to finance the increased costs. The idea that they can appeal (or shame) other EU countries into doing more is their last hope of get out of that predicament.

It's pretty futile, but they have to signal the Swedish people that they are doing something at least.

Thank you I suspected it was something like this, but there could have been some kind of grand plan. BTW how popular is this diplomatic effort among the Swedish media and people?
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ingemann
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« Reply #819 on: November 08, 2015, 10:20:10 am »

The tricky thing for Sweden is that asylum seekers probably won't care so much for Sweden's problems in terms of finding proper accommodations and financing everything. Due to its reputation and its laws, Sweden will likely remain a destination more attractive to migrants than, say, Denmark or Finland.

Also because of a existing diaspora, we shouldn't ignore that Sweden is the target of many Iraqi and Syrian refugees because Sweden already had large Iraqi and Syrian populations.
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Beezer
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« Reply #820 on: November 08, 2015, 10:49:42 am »

The murder rates (per 100.000 people)Sad

Austrian citizens: 0.5
Foreigners: 3.7
Asylum seekers: 25.8

http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXV/AB/AB_05631/imfname_463492.pdf

Reality has an anti-immigrant bias I suppose...
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Intell
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« Reply #821 on: November 10, 2015, 10:13:02 pm »

The murder rates (per 100.000 people)Sad

Austrian citizens: 0.5
Foreigners: 3.7
Asylum seekers: 25.8

http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXV/AB/AB_05631/imfname_463492.pdf

Reality has an anti-immigrant bias I suppose...

Sigh*, we really need to a place to put some extremist refugee and control refugees coming into the country and only accept those that have no history of crime, as well as assessing how they are as a person. We can't just be like, "let everyone in", which will probably result in the destruction of working class ethnics and the welfare state. That saying, even if we don't let them in, we should give them money to settle in other places, with adequate help and help them create business in their former homes and to try to make a refugee camp be like a small town with mutual cooperation.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #822 on: November 11, 2015, 11:47:05 am »

"Sweden's fastest 14 year old" Saad Alsaud (pictured with his fellow students) runs 100 meters in 11.82 seconds in a school race, reports Kristianstadsbladet.



If I didn't know better, I'd guess that he's at least 25.
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Beezer
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« Reply #823 on: November 11, 2015, 02:43:26 pm »

So German interior minister de Maiziere has said that Dublin rules apply to Syrians again. He's also said he did all of this without asking Mama Merkel. SPD not happy, CDU in disarray.
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Diouf
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« Reply #824 on: November 11, 2015, 03:23:11 pm »

Sweden introduces temporary border controls. By no means certain to reduce influx, it could as well have the opposite effect.

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-sweden-border-migrants-20151111-story.html
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