Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

It's bad enough giving the regions carte blanche authority to rename their regions with stupid and ridiculous names, but giving them authority to rename their states with even more stupid names is one of the most ridiculous amendments I have ever seen proposed in my life here on this forum.

Will this madness never end?

     It's also been the law of the land for over a decade with no real downsides. A major factor in the health and strength of the regions is allowing them to have unique cultures determined by those living there. Stifling that doesn't help.

The law of the land allows regions to rename states but still mandates that the use of the real names be accepted as well for registering people and legislation and so on. I agree with winfield that if that changes there will be serious problems.

     Good point, that thought had not occurred to me. I am also concerned about the flipside; would this block the regions from recognizing alternate state names? I am supposing yes, though I do not have the time to look  too far into this now.

Presumably, the Regions would be free to adopt/recognize alternate names for their constituent states without this amendment, seeing as the Midwest has been doing so for years without any official Constitutional provision protecting that right. Unless we were to adopt a clause explicitly outlawing the use of alternate state names, it is hard to imagine an attempt to end this practice gaining much traction in the Supreme Court. With that in mind, the only effect rejecting this amendment will have is to absolve the federal government of the responsibility to recognize said alternate names in place of the real life names of the states (by my reading, Nyman would remain able to recognize the alternate names alongside real life names).

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I object to Ilikeverin's amendment. While I don't begrudge the Regions the right to propose alternate names for their constituent states, I do not believe that the federal government should be obliged to recognize those names.

In any event, I feel that this is an issue best settled by ordinary legislation: as it is, we're coming dangerously close to an overly legalistic Constitution such as we have now. The purpose of the Constitution should be to establish a basic framework for the game; all other questions (state names, titles of legislative officers, etc.) should be settled through the legislative process. That way, if mistakes are made, they can be easily fixed by an Act of Congress without need for a formal Constitutional Amendment.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

A vote is now open on the amendment proposed by Ilikeverin. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

NAY.

My own opinion of this measure aside, this is not an issue that should be addressed in the Constitution. The purpose of a constitution should be to provide a framework - a lattice, if you will - upon which the game can grow and prosper. It should not attempt to anticipate every political question that will confront this Republic, nor should it seek to carve every tradition and cultural custom in stone. Apart from basic political liberties and the structure of the national government, most matters of state should be left to the elected representatives of the national government. The failure of past generations to recognize this is what brought us to this point, and I urge my fellow delegates not to repeat their mistakes by attempting to answer every question in our charter of government.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

By a vote of 4 Ayes, 11 Nays, one Abstention, and with six delegates not voting and two votes invalid, this amendment has FAILED.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Moving on! It seems to me that we have addressed all the potential concerns and suggestions in regards to the structure of the Regions (Section 1 of this Article) and the right to secede (Section 2); what remains is to finalize the rights and limitations of the Regional governments. I therefore propose the following amendment:

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FOR REFERENCE: The text for Section 3 proposed above has already been adopted in the Regional Powers thread; this amendment merely incorporates it into the appropriate article. I am sure that some of you would like to see changes made before we proceed to a final vote; HOWEVER, because it will be much easier to adopt this amendment and then make changes as necessary that it would be to reject this text and then start again from scratch, I respectfully ask that you refrain from objecting to this amendment. This is by no means a final text nor is it intended to settle every question before us: rather, my objective was to get the text of this Article all in one place so that we can proceed as efficiently as possible.


Delegates have 24 hours to object to Truman's amendment (though I recommend that you refrain from doing so, for the reasons given above).

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection (I think?), this amendment has been ADOPTED.

If anybody has a problem with this Article, particularly Section 3, now would be the time to mention it.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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I think this will need to be debated - purely as I think it limits the ability of the regional legislatures to react to changes in it's electorate and activity levels.

Agreed.

Yes, absolutely - I think a principle vote is in order here. Any objections?

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

A vote is now open to strike Section 3, clause vi of this Article. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

For reference, here is the full text of the clause that will be repealed should this motion pass:

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Mr. President, maybe this was already addressed, but what is the "manner prescribed by Congress" for regional legislature change...?

As there is no clause in the current Constitution that allows the national legislature to make such a prescription and, in any case, no "Congress" to make it, there is no legally-established response to this question. The idea was to establish the principle of federal oversight of the Regional legislatures and allow lawmakers to beat out the nitty-gritty details after the first Congress has been elected. Presumably, the formula proposed by Congress would provide for the expansion and contraction of Regional legislative bodies based on population (this is what Griffin proposed back in October).

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Okay, seeing as there seems to be a bit of confusion as to what, exactly, is being voted on, I'm going to restart this vote. Delegates have 48 hours to vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain on the following amendment (proposed and objected to by myself to make the object of this vote more clear):

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

NAY

It's interesting that some have brought up the South as an example of how the Regions can handle this themselves, considering that just days ago the Southern Legislature was on the verge of expanding its membership to unsustainable levels (and would have done so had I not spent a good chunk of my weekend explaining to them why this was an utterly horrible idea).

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

By a vote of 8 Ayes, 5 Nays, and with ten delegates not voting, this amendment has PASSED.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Would everybody be okay with a final vote on this? Having dealt with 3.6, the rest seems pretty uncontroversial and/or has already been settled by previous votes/amendments.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no further debate, I motion for a final vote on this Article. Delegates have 24 hours to object.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection, a FINAL VOTE is now open on this Article. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

AYE!

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

By a vote of 10 Ayes, 4 Nays, and with one vote invalid and eight delegates not voting, this Article has been ADOPTED.

As such, I hereby declare debate to be CLOSED in this thread.