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  Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)
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Author Topic: Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)  (Read 39045 times)
Oakvale
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« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2015, 02:02:13 pm »

We can spend weeks arguing about this "right to secede" and whether it should exist based on real life precedents, but I have to ask, what is the point of seccession itself?

It certainly doesn't add a productive dynamic to the game, unless we call the increasingly ludicrous "lol, I'm rebelling against Nyman and creating my own country" stunts a useful part of the game. It doesn't make sense either in hypothetical terms to dismember the country and blow up the union, not to mention this "right to secede" is far from a usual norm across the world these days.

Why, then, are secession mechanisms (which seem awfully easy to overcome) something we need?

Typical fascist claptrap. If enough people want to form a new country they should have the right do so. Atlasia started because people wanted to do exactly that. The kind of absurd legalism that implies it should be against "muh rules" (which is what the Constitution is) will kill this game stone dead as it lies in hospital on life support.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2015, 02:04:24 pm »

What you don't get to grasp the idea of Oakvale, is that splitting up a nation will kill a nation. With all do respect you're smart enough to know this.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2015, 02:17:10 pm »

OK, individuals should have the right to leave a country if they wish, sure, but I guess my argument is taking land with them. It's fine to leave a country out of protest, but taking your house and forming your own country using land of another is a bit much. People can have the right to leave but the federal government should have the right to enforce the union.

Otherwise, why have a federal government? Just make a confederation of states that all have their own autonomy and be done with it.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2015, 02:21:00 pm »

What you don't get to grasp the idea of Oakvale, is that splitting up a nation will kill a nation. With all do respect you're smart enough to know this.

The nation's already dead. The signs of life that occasionally emerge when someone with a genuinely radical message like Talleyrand emerges doesn't change that. If anything, regional independence - and let's face it, this is a blatant slap in the fact to the Northeast Nationalists by the hacks running this Convention, and nothing more - would revitalise the game. But, you know, muh union.

OK, individuals should have the right to leave a country if they wish, sure, but I guess my argument is taking land with them. It's fine to leave a country out of protest, but taking your house and forming your own country using land of another is a bit much. People can have the right to leave but the federal government should have the right to enforce the union.

Otherwise, why have a federal government? Just make a confederation of states that all have their own autonomy and be done with it.

I'd be fine with that.
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Lumine
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« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2015, 02:28:39 pm »

I think it's the 100th or so that I hear independence from a region to be something that would "revitalise" the game, and I fail to see convincing evidence supporting that. If anything, it's the "muh secession" mentality that seems a bit out of touch considering there is little point for the union to be broken in a whim.

And so I ask again, why do we need seccession? What do we gain from it?
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2015, 02:36:43 pm »

Just make a confederation of states that all have their own autonomy and be done with it.
That isn't a terrible idea. Perhaps create it in a way where the federal governments role is simple: monitor the regions.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2015, 02:44:03 pm »

I think it's the 100th or so that I hear independence from a region to be something that would "revitalise" the game, and I fail to see convincing evidence supporting that. If anything, it's the "muh secession" mentality that seems a bit out of touch considering there is little point for the union to be broken in a whim.

And so I ask again, why do we need seccession? What do we gain from it?

Yeah, the argument for secession is pretty poor all around. As Duke pointed out, the theoretical argument for secession is weak to begin with, and claims that secession would spark increased activity just doesn't match up with reality. Oakvale and others have been pushing for Northeast independence for months now, yet this has not led to a significant increase in activity (the Northeast is active, yes, but this has little to do with with the secession movement). It's much more likely that secession would actually cause the game to collapse, as independent Regions would have smaller pools of active voters than a united Republic.

Furthermore, if you believe that Atlasia is already dead, you frankly shouldn't be here.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2015, 03:06:29 pm »

Again: don't overlap amendments and when you present  amendments don't forget to strikethrough the current text.

@NeverAgain: I should assume that with your amendment you want to strike the current text and enterely replace it with the content of your amendment, right?
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2015, 03:12:32 pm »

Well, under certain circumstances succession does spark activity. I did that when I first joined Atlasia in 2008. Tongue

But it's never a long term thing. Eventually the region returns or is forced to. If people want a confederation where regions basically govern themselves then that's fine, push for that. But combining the current system with free succession doesn't make sense to me. If the Feds have no teeth there's little point in having Feds at all if region X can just leave without any issue for not liking the federal abortion law or being against same sex marriage, etc.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2015, 03:25:37 pm »

It doesn't matter if the "theoretical argument for secession" is poor all around. That doesn't give the federal government a totalitarian right to prevent the self-determination of peoples. If a region wants to secede and does so by a democratic vote, the federal government should respect that decision and have mechanisms in place to deal with that (such as an automatic constitutional convention).
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2015, 03:54:04 pm »

We cannot be constantly tearing down and rebuilding the union at the whim of 51% of one Region. This is a recipe for disaster, and would likely destroy both Atlasia and the recently-separated Regions. As Duke said, there's nothing to stop people from starting up a new nation outside of Atlasia (such as South America or the Papal Patch), but allowing them to compromise our territorial integrity is a very bad idea. No Region was forced to join Atlasia against its will, nor has any been deprived of the right to self-government - there is literally no reason they would need to separate from the Republic, except in desperate pursuit of a momentary activity buzz.

If you think that the Regions should be entirely self-governing, fine: reestablish the Articles of Confederation and abandon the federal system entirely. Otherwise, we need to recognize that the whole point of a federal union is its permanence, and any attempt to weaken this is will result in an unworkable government.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2015, 03:55:24 pm »

Oakvale and others have been pushing for Northeast independence for months now, yet this has not led to a significant increase in activity (the Northeast is active, yes, but this has little to do with with the secession movement).

grossly inaccurate, as usual, mr senator.

you see, very nearly 3/4 of legislative activity in the northeast over the past month comes from pro-independence legislators. and 60% of it comes from clyde and myself, both of whom have made it clear that we will resign if the referendum fails.
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Clark Kent
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« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2015, 04:01:30 pm »

Oakvale and others have been pushing for Northeast independence for months now, yet this has not led to a significant increase in activity (the Northeast is active, yes, but this has little to do with with the secession movement).

grossly inaccurate, as usual, mr senator.

you see, very nearly 3/4 of legislative activity in the northeast over the past month comes from pro-independence legislators. and 60% of it comes from clyde and myself, both of whom have made it clear that we will resign if the referendum fails.
Ms. Speaker, what are your sources for this? The only possible way for the Northeast Assembly to be 75% anti-Union is if I am the only pro-Union representative, and I am reasonably certain that that is not the case.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2015, 04:07:53 pm »

Oakvale and others have been pushing for Northeast independence for months now, yet this has not led to a significant increase in activity (the Northeast is active, yes, but this has little to do with with the secession movement).

grossly inaccurate, as usual, mr senator.

you see, very nearly 3/4 of legislative activity in the northeast over the past month comes from pro-independence legislators. and 60% of it comes from clyde and myself, both of whom have made it clear that we will resign if the referendum fails.

The fact that the most active members of the Northeast Assembly support secession does not prove that secession leads to greater activity: it merely proves that most active lawmakers are secessionists. The foremost leaders of the independence movement - yourself, Clyde, Oakvale, DemPGH - were active citizens long before secession was proposed. If you want to prove that secession leads to increased activity, you need to demonstrate that the Independence referendum has brought new voters to Atlasia, and this is clearly not the case.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2015, 04:11:41 pm »

I oppose NeverAgain's amendment. Should a region choose to secede, they should not have to go through the senate, much less the president, to do so.

     As I was saying before, if people really want to secede then they will just do it, regardless of what the federal government has to say about it. The idea of regulating secession is an exercise in parody.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2015, 06:31:20 pm »

I can see secession if you are living under a tyrannical central government, who is imposing their will on a region, and forcing you to live in fear, i.e. Russia/Ukraine.

But in a democracy with all the rights enjoyed by Atlasians, giving unquestioned authority to a group of malcontents to secede is ridiculous.

We have passed an amendment banning secession.

Time to move on.   

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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #116 on: October 12, 2015, 06:35:00 pm »

I can see secession if you are living under a tyrannical central government, who is imposing their will on a region, and forcing you to live in fear, i.e. Russia/Ukraine.

But in a democracy with all the rights enjoyed by Atlasians, giving unquestioned authority to a group of malcontents to secede is ridiculous.

We have passed an amendment banning secession.

Time to move on.   


Hear hear.
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Chromium R Florida
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« Reply #117 on: October 12, 2015, 08:03:27 pm »

Just make a confederation of states that all have their own autonomy and be done with it.
That isn't a terrible idea. Perhaps create it in a way where the federal governments role is simple: monitor the regions.

It's a pretty bad idea. The only different would be that rabble-rousers would just start seceding counties or whatever the next relevant geographic area is at the time. It's a sentiment and not something contingent upon any one particular type of government.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #118 on: October 12, 2015, 11:44:06 pm »

My fellow conservatives may think I'm a little off my rocker for this but there is precedence for the right of secession. Atlasia itself was and is the greatest secession movement because the mother country from which we came (the United Kingdom) denied us representation in her parliament while demanding that we pay taxes. The Declaration of Independence is a secessionist document

Just take in this paragraph for example

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.



Our very convention is assembled to alter our constitution to reform our nation and protect the liberties we all hold dear. While I agree with you that secession from a free and democratic nation to form another one is irrational, the right of self governance and autonomy is a right we all hold dear. Look at the brave people of Catalonia who want to break away from Spain. The region pays 20 percent of the total revenue that goes to Madrid while only receiving 14 back. Given Spain's history of dictatorships shouldn't Catalonia's bid for independence be given serious consideration. Given our recent unrest and failed coup by TNF, I think giving our 5 regions greater autonomy would be a good idea.
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Leinad
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« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2015, 01:56:23 am »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 01:58:45 am by Governor Leinad »

What's the point in having a country if you're just letting regions leave whenever they get angry?
But in a democracy with all the rights enjoyed by Atlasians, giving unquestioned authority to a group of malcontents to secede is ridiculous.  

Opposing the Classic Conservative amendment doesn't imply support of the Evergreen amendment: a laissez-faire approach to secession. They're both positions that I think miss the point in different directions by assuming that all secessions are fundamentally equal, and there's never a time where their default position is wrong (I'd love to hear what Classic and those who back his amendment have to say about America's independence, or what Evergreen and those who back her amendment have to say about the Confederacy).

I think some people voted aye on the amendment to abolish the right of self-determination in all cases because they thought it was only a choice between those two options. At least, that's what Duke and Winfield make it sound like.

what is the point of seccession itself?

It certainly doesn't add a productive dynamic to the game

As former Senator Kalwejt said, it could add a layer to the game in diplomacy.

Probably a majority of people, including myself, have supported some level of relations with South America. An independent region would make it a three-way. Er, of diplomatic relations. (By the way, I wish we had about 10 times as many people so we could make 7 Atlasias and re-create the board game Diplomacy. Can I get an amen?)

I'm not sure why no one has brought it up, and why so many are reducing all secessions to nothing more than bratty children pitching a fit, and thus bringing nothing as far as activity to the game (a false assertion even with the current example--no matter what you think about the Northeast independence movement, it's created several threads worth of interesting discussion).

I also object to NeverAgains Admendment we already have an Admendment that passed, we don't need to keep debating this forever and ever.
We have passed an amendment banning secession.

Time to move on.

10 people voted for it out of 25. It won by a single vote. It's as settled as Einstein's hair after a convertible ride.

To completely brush aside any additional arguments, or any compromise, or anything else whatsoever regarding this matter just because your prefered choice already passed (by the skin of it's teeth) is absurd and borderline undemocratic. I had to deal with this crap at the Provisional Parliament--it's annoying.



Also, I second JCL's defense of self-determination. It's demagogic to call something un-American/un-Atlasian, so I'll resist the urge, but this is a founding principle we're crushing like a baseball on mom's vase with barely a second thought.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2015, 02:17:39 am »

I have been pushing for greater powers to be devolved to the regions for years and since we are likely to have a legislative restart, now i the time to do it. However, I find seperatism to be just a bridge too far.

And to respond to Tmth's earlier posts. That is a false equivalency. Supporting regional rights does not equal supporting secession, and I have consistently supported regional rights, whilst also opposing every effort at secession that has occured since I have been here.

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Leinad
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« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2015, 02:22:43 am »

I oppose NeverAgain's amendment as well, for the same reason that Tmth opposed it. BUT, I think it's the best idea so far.

Therefore, Mr. Presiding Officer, I'd like to propose this amendment (presumably to be voted on after NeverAgain's):

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I'd also be willing to add an emergency clause--perhaps that the federal government (however we decide to set that up) can overturn this with, say, a four-fifths majority of the senate. Or maybe a different safeguard--perhaps the governor has to approve it, or it can be overturned if one senator from each region agrees. And then I'd be willing to add a counter to that--if it passes the referendum by, say, a three-fourths vote, it will go through anyway.

Of course, these numbers are just placeholders. The point is that the right to self-determination isn't infringed, but it needs to be by more than a 50%+1 margin. It's all about checks and balances, people.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2015, 05:55:54 am »

I object.
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« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2015, 06:13:41 am »

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Lumine
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« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2015, 06:24:27 am »

I object, for the love of the gods, just how many amendments on seccession are we going to vote on?
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