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  Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)
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Author Topic: Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)  (Read 38939 times)
Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #400 on: October 30, 2015, 07:44:17 am »

And I oppose Truman's amendment. It wasn't the map decided by thr CARCA.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #401 on: October 30, 2015, 08:45:33 am »

A 48-hours on Truman's amendment is now open. Please vote.

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Senator Cris
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« Reply #402 on: October 30, 2015, 08:48:20 am »

I really don't understand why this CARCA map is untouchable for many.
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bore
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« Reply #403 on: October 30, 2015, 08:49:11 am »

I don't know exactly what the ConCon rules are, but presumably like the senate rules there is a way for the presiding officer to suspend them if neccessary.

Therefore, I motion to just suspend all amendments in the queue, have 48 hours or something for everyone to propose their own maps and names for the regions and then have an IRV vote on that.



When it comes to region names I don't think the let the regions decide idea is the right one because they'll have the vote to decide on the name after the constitutions adoption leading to a lot of confusion about what each regions name is. Why don't we name them, and if they want to change their name they can petition the federal government in some way?
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #404 on: October 30, 2015, 08:55:08 am »

Nay

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Clyde1998
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« Reply #405 on: October 30, 2015, 09:03:31 am »

Nay
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #406 on: October 30, 2015, 09:30:11 am »

I don't like the names. I'm not sure how I'll vote yet.
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MadmanMotley
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« Reply #407 on: October 30, 2015, 09:47:15 am »

Nay
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #408 on: October 30, 2015, 09:52:04 am »

Aye.

Vote for the map here, guys. We can go back and decide on names. I don't support these names, either.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #409 on: October 30, 2015, 01:32:01 pm »

Aye
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #410 on: October 30, 2015, 03:13:15 pm »

     Aye
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Negusa Nagast 🚀
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« Reply #411 on: October 30, 2015, 03:22:04 pm »

Aye.

There are more important things to be discussed at this point. This map is an excellent compromise.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #412 on: October 30, 2015, 04:11:09 pm »

AYE
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #413 on: October 30, 2015, 04:24:55 pm »

Aye
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #414 on: October 30, 2015, 05:28:56 pm »

AYE.
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Chromium R Florida
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« Reply #415 on: October 30, 2015, 06:22:31 pm »

Aye, and so help me God, I will c**nt-punt anybody else who tries to move states around on this.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #416 on: October 30, 2015, 08:53:06 pm »

Aye, and so help me God, I will c**nt-punt anybody else who tries to move states around on this.

Aye but I may propose another map.
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Leinad
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« Reply #417 on: October 30, 2015, 09:22:34 pm »
« Edited: October 30, 2015, 09:25:30 pm by Governor Leinad »

Aye!

Leinad, you participated to The Convention for Agreement on Regional Consolidation in Atlasia, here: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=216567.0
The goal of this convention was to select a map. You proposed your map, everyone proposed their maps, and in the end a map was selected.

There is no justification to give you about why a state should be in this region and not in an another region, a majority of the people chose this map.

First of all, "a majority of the people chose this map" is blatantly untrue: for one thing, it wasn't a "majority," that's not how the voting system worked for CARCA, and for another thing, it wasn't "the people" (as in, the people of Atlasia or people elected by them), it was the people who participated in CARCA. And not everyone did. Some didn't participate in it because they opposed it, for example. Your presidential analogy is off-base because a presidential election is A) binding/official and B) ideologically neutral.

So much has changed since then. At that point the Constitutional Convention wasn't a reality, South America was still in it's early stages, and public opinion on consolidation was radically different. Please stop acting like CARCA is some Mandate from God and the universe will blow up if we dare stray from it.

Legitimately elected/selected delegates have the right to float around ideas for us to vote on. That's the idea of the convention, really.

If my amendment fails, I suggest we hold a "CARCA Redux" in which every delegate can propose a map and the Convention selects one via STV. Obviously, the principle vote to adopt a 3-Region map would still be binding, so any proposals that have more or less than 3 Regions would be discarded.

I completely agree with this suggestion. Although, fortunately, your map seems to be doing well.

Furthermore, I'm yet to hear a convincing argument as to why MN and IA should be in the West. You say that most of the current Midwest is being incorporated into the new Western Region (which is true), but make no argument as to why this should continue to be the case.

Maybe I forgot to mention it. I think I said it somewhere, but anyway, here it is: right now, the Northeast has many more times the activity as the West or Midwest--and I'd wager more than both of those regions combined. Especially when we add much of the Mideast to it. I understand that the regions change in activity, but I'd presume it will be this way for at least the near future.

And while I don't think the status quo carries much weight, I'd put much more stock in that than CARCA.

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Sure, but as I alluded to with my gay marriage analogy, the will of the people often changes with more information and arguments. And I suppose I could've phrased it better: while a person would be upset if their idea is rejected due to most people genuinely opposing it, it's another level of justified rage entirely if the idea is rejected due to people saying "no, this is going on too long" or "we already settled this with an informal convention a few month ago."

And that's the key--the difference between something not passing due to it being against the will of the people, or something not passing because certain people who think they run the place stifled debate.

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Thanks! The internet has enough people insulting each other already, so I figure it would be overkill for me to add to that mess.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #418 on: October 30, 2015, 09:52:06 pm »

My argument makes complete sense - it amazes me how time and time again, individuals at this convention are trying to rush things through and stifle debate.

Your argument is the one that doesn't make sense - comparing this to a presidential election is like comparing apples to oranges.

I have a question for you, Windjammer, and others who are opposed to any changes because of CARCA: Was CARCA binding?
Sometimes it can be useful to compare apples and oranges by the way, and your argument still doesn't make no sense. CARCA was made in order to speed the process, not my fault if you chose to leave the game.
What an undemocratic way to look at things! "Oh, you weren't registered in the game when we talked about maps, so you can't have an opinion." Once again, if CARCA were binding, you would be absolutely correct. But it isn't. It was a group of random people, not determined by any legal document, who came up with a suggestion.
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Chromium R Florida
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #419 on: October 30, 2015, 10:23:13 pm »
« Edited: October 30, 2015, 10:25:00 pm by RG Griff »

My argument makes complete sense - it amazes me how time and time again, individuals at this convention are trying to rush things through and stifle debate.

Your argument is the one that doesn't make sense - comparing this to a presidential election is like comparing apples to oranges.

I have a question for you, Windjammer, and others who are opposed to any changes because of CARCA: Was CARCA binding?
Sometimes it can be useful to compare apples and oranges by the way, and your argument still doesn't make no sense. CARCA was made in order to speed the process, not my fault if you chose to leave the game.
What an undemocratic way to look at things! "Oh, you weren't registered in the game when we talked about maps, so you can't have an opinion." Once again, if CARCA were binding, you would be absolutely correct. But it isn't. It was a group of random people, not determined by any legal document, who came up with a suggestion.

But you specifically were around in 2013 when the first CARCA occurred, you expressed concerns about how the ME might be divided, and yet you didn't join the process (presumably because the Federalists were lynching people right and left for daring to support consolidation), which did produce the very same map that was replicated by the process in 2015.



I really don't get how people want to say that this isn't the most crowd-sourced and objectively-supported solution we have at a moment. From the perspective that it was largely two different groups of people spread across two years (who were ideologically diverse, mind you), that tells us that the boundaries are objectively better with regards to making sense to players who have played at different points in history - long-term sensibility, in other words.  

Also, let's look at public opinion on the map in 2013 - which was when 60-65% supported consolidation and 35-40% opposed it. What were the opinions of more than 50 people?



This was the general public's findings - more than one-third of the registered voters at the time - and overwhelming majorities of those who supported consolidation said "yes, I support this map". Obviously those opposing consolidation wouldn't support the map, so you do the two-way model and can state that 87% of consolidation supporters in 2013 supported CARCA. Do any of the opponents who are opposing it for opposition and choice's sake have a solution ready to go that generates anywhere near that level of support from the public at-large?

Barring the faux outrage by some individuals in this body who are essentially making an argument similar to "I know how to spend my money better than the government!!!" and that it would likely permeate a public dialogue about it now, I think similar results would appear if surveyed today. The fact that it's now actually being formalized would polarize the discussion a bit more, but let's not pretend that anywhere near an informed majority would oppose this map or have something better ready to go that wouldn't require a similar process to CARCA.


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tmthforu94
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« Reply #420 on: October 30, 2015, 10:42:05 pm »

2 years is a long time in Atlasia - your memory is certainly better than mine.
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NeverAgain
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« Reply #421 on: October 30, 2015, 11:05:18 pm »

Aye.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #422 on: October 31, 2015, 12:33:12 am »

and yet you didn't join the process (presumably because the Federalists were lynching people right and left for daring to support consolidation),

Bullsh**t!!!


Tmth was overwhelmingly elected as Party Chairman in December 2013 as an aknowledged supporter of Consolidation, to replace another pro-Consolidation Chairman, Maxwell. Duke was nominated in October 2013, running as a pro-Consolidation independent with a Federalist VP, who also supported consolidation.

Of the three Federalist Senators, only one voted against the final FTR amendment, and that was after said single Federalist Nay exerted much effort to assist in structuring a workable process. This same Nay voter than expedited the process to bring the FTR back up after three lame-ass Senators you elected went AWOL and caused it to fail the first time. Of course you weren't here for that because you had pussed out like a err deregistered. Tongue

The  opposition that killed it at the ratification booth came to ahead in January 2014, by which time Duke had been damaged amongst Conservatives from the perception he was too compromising with TNF. I would also remind you that the first, albeit abortive, challenger to Duke, was pro-consolidation Maxwell.

Consolidation did divide the Party, but there was no effort to lynch pro-consolidation people because they were pro-consolidation and it was certainly not an overwhelming factor whilst CARCA 2013 was underway. It did get lumped onto many unfair critiques that was leveled at Duke and helped to fuel the Reaganfan challenge, in early 2014, not in 2013.

Once again your take on these events is clouded by the simple fact, that, as we painfully learned this summer, there is no substitute for being there. Tongue
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Chromium R Florida
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #423 on: October 31, 2015, 04:33:32 am »
« Edited: October 31, 2015, 05:00:43 am by RG Griff »

On the condition that the current amendment being voted on passes, I offer the following amendment.

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What it does:

  • Adds Oceania, which was forgotten in previous amendments
  • Implements the entirety of Canada as an equally-playable series of provinces within our new game; no need to consult the U.N. since we are building a new time-line from scratch
  • Because the A-CCM had to take into account providing provinces to all 5 regions in order to pass, the eastern provinces of Canada/the map overall looked goofy with Southern Canadian provinces completely separate from the rest of the region. As such, I propose a compromise that provides the Southern region with 5 formerly-sovereign Caribbean entities that would now be incorporated as states all the same. This ensures that all regions are properly represented in the expansion of playable game boundaries.
  • I made promises to several individuals that I would no longer pursue annexation of Mexico or the entirety of North America, and I am standing by both of those promises.
  • Visual representation (Oceania not pictured)
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Chromium R Florida
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #424 on: October 31, 2015, 04:36:02 am »

and yet you didn't join the process (presumably because the Federalists were lynching people right and left for daring to support consolidation),

Bullsh**t!!!


Tmth was overwhelmingly elected as Party Chairman in December 2013 as an aknowledged supporter of Consolidation, to replace another pro-Consolidation Chairman, Maxwell. Duke was nominated in October 2013, running as a pro-Consolidation independent with a Federalist VP, who also supported consolidation.

Of the three Federalist Senators, only one voted against the final FTR amendment, and that was after said single Federalist Nay exerted much effort to assist in structuring a workable process. This same Nay voter than expedited the process to bring the FTR back up after three lame-ass Senators you elected went AWOL and caused it to fail the first time. Of course you weren't here for that because you had pussed out like a err deregistered. Tongue

The  opposition that killed it at the ratification booth came to ahead in January 2014, by which time Duke had been damaged amongst Conservatives from the perception he was too compromising with TNF. I would also remind you that the first, albeit abortive, challenger to Duke, was pro-consolidation Maxwell.

Consolidation did divide the Party, but there was no effort to lynch pro-consolidation people because they were pro-consolidation and it was certainly not an overwhelming factor whilst CARCA 2013 was underway. It did get lumped onto many unfair critiques that was leveled at Duke and helped to fuel the Reaganfan challenge, in early 2014, not in 2013.

Once again your take on these events is clouded by the simple fact, that, as we painfully learned this summer, there is no substitute for being there. Tongue

All of that occurred after CARCA and after Hagrid more or less had stopped influencing the process by proxy. I was informed by pro-consolidation Federalists during that time that they were facing pressure not to be involved. In addition, I'm sure Federalist Independent President Duke can elaborate on just how much criticism (including a primary challenge) he faced over being pro-consolidation, but he can put it in his own words if he wishes!
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