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  Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)
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Author Topic: Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)  (Read 38966 times)
bore
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« Reply #675 on: January 04, 2016, 05:07:33 pm »

Nay
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #676 on: January 04, 2016, 06:04:52 pm »

By a vote of 4 Ayes, 11 Nays, one Abstention, and with six delegates not voting and two votes invalid, this amendment has FAILED.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #677 on: January 05, 2016, 07:45:22 pm »

Moving on! It seems to me that we have addressed all the potential concerns and suggestions in regards to the structure of the Regions (Section 1 of this Article) and the right to secede (Section 2); what remains is to finalize the rights and limitations of the Regional governments. I therefore propose the following amendment:

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FOR REFERENCE: The text for Section 3 proposed above has already been adopted in the Regional Powers thread; this amendment merely incorporates it into the appropriate article. I am sure that some of you would like to see changes made before we proceed to a final vote; HOWEVER, because it will be much easier to adopt this amendment and then make changes as necessary that it would be to reject this text and then start again from scratch, I respectfully ask that you refrain from objecting to this amendment. This is by no means a final text nor is it intended to settle every question before us: rather, my objective was to get the text of this Article all in one place so that we can proceed as efficiently as possible.



Delegates have 24 hours to object to Truman's amendment (though I recommend that you refrain from doing so, for the reasons given above).
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #678 on: January 06, 2016, 12:51:16 am »

Nay
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #679 on: January 06, 2016, 05:19:32 pm »


     Is that an objection? Wink
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #680 on: January 06, 2016, 08:50:40 pm »

Seeing no objection (I think?), this amendment has been ADOPTED.

If anybody has a problem with this Article, particularly Section 3, now would be the time to mention it.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #681 on: January 07, 2016, 09:05:40 am »

Seeing no objection (I think?), this amendment has been ADOPTED.

If anybody has a problem with this Article, particularly Section 3, now would be the time to mention it.
I think the "potential objection" was a late vote for the previous vote, rather than an objection.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #682 on: January 07, 2016, 09:10:00 am »

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I think this will need to be debated - purely as I think it limits the ability of the regional legislatures to react to changes in it's electorate and activity levels.
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Prince of Salem
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« Reply #683 on: January 07, 2016, 04:04:13 pm »

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I think this will need to be debated - purely as I think it limits the ability of the regional legislatures to react to changes in it's electorate and activity levels.

Agreed.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #684 on: January 07, 2016, 05:04:13 pm »

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I think this will need to be debated - purely as I think it limits the ability of the regional legislatures to react to changes in it's electorate and activity levels.
Agreed.
Yes, absolutely - I think a principle vote is in order here. Any objections?
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Chromium R Florida
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« Reply #685 on: January 07, 2016, 08:02:31 pm »

It will inevitably be a necessary construct if we are to have a functioning government that avoids the problems of the past, so hopefully people have grown to understand this by now.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #686 on: January 07, 2016, 10:29:11 pm »

I trust that regions will be able to reflect on mistakes in the past and adjust the size of their legislature independently to meet the needs of the region.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #687 on: January 07, 2016, 10:30:35 pm »

I trust that regions will be able to reflect on mistakes in the past and adjust the size of their legislature independently to meet the needs of the region.
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Leinad
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« Reply #688 on: January 08, 2016, 09:08:01 am »

Yes, I agree, a principle vote is most definitely in order.

I trust that regions will be able to reflect on mistakes in the past and adjust the size of their legislature independently to meet the needs of the region.

Thirded.

Why is the federal government able to decide what's best for the regional governments, but the regional governments don't have that ability? Are they inherently less capable of solving their own problems than the federal government? Surely, if anything, they would be better!

I recommend a self-adjusting system, like I proposed earlier for the House but was rejected, for regional legislatures. One that automatically contracts if the activity just isn't there, and expands if there's an abundance of candidates. Of course, it should be the job of each legislature to decide what is best for them.

With all due respect, Mr. President, you're acting as if giving the regions this power will cause the earth to fly out of it's orbit, or cats and dogs to rain sideways. "The problems of the past" were not caused, in any way, by letting regional governments define their own basic properties.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #689 on: January 08, 2016, 11:42:41 am »

I do not mind some regional latitude, however, my fear is if given too much authority, they will tend to go overboard, rather than steer a reasonable course.

We already all know, for example, that the regions are going to be renaming themselves with silly and ridiculous names and titles for office holders.

Some restrictions should be put in place which the regions will have to follow and adhere to.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #690 on: January 08, 2016, 09:15:14 pm »

A vote is now open to strike Section 3, clause vi of this Article. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

For reference, here is the full text of the clause that will be repealed should this motion pass:
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« Reply #691 on: January 08, 2016, 09:51:00 pm »

Nay, I think legislatures must be able to eb and flow with the population at the time. That being said some restrictions must be in place (like regional referendum) to stop unruly assemblies from getting out of hand. Mr. President, maybe this was already addressed, but what is the "manner prescribed by Congress" for regional legislature change, as this may clear up some things for me.
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VPH
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« Reply #692 on: January 08, 2016, 10:11:54 pm »

NAY! Regional legislatures need to be able to act to shift with their population/activity.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #693 on: January 08, 2016, 10:41:20 pm »

Mr. President, maybe this was already addressed, but what is the "manner prescribed by Congress" for regional legislature change...?
As there is no clause in the current Constitution that allows the national legislature to make such a prescription and, in any case, no "Congress" to make it, there is no legally-established response to this question. The idea was to establish the principle of federal oversight of the Regional legislatures and allow lawmakers to beat out the nitty-gritty details after the first Congress has been elected. Presumably, the formula proposed by Congress would provide for the expansion and contraction of Regional legislative bodies based on population (this is what Griffin proposed back in October).
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Chromium R Florida
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« Reply #694 on: January 08, 2016, 11:40:16 pm »
« Edited: January 08, 2016, 11:42:45 pm by President Griffin »

The single biggest and initial deterioration of activity in this game was fueled by regions that could not properly govern themselves with respect to ensuring that there weren't too many or too few elected positions available. This is why we're here, ladies and gentlemen. There are too many offices in the game. That problem rests solely with the Regions, of which there are too many and often too many offices within each.

The Regions most definitely do not possess nor will possess the foresight or ability to properly "reflect upon the mistakes of the past", because I've been screaming about the need to reduce the proliferation of offices for over two years and not a single Region properly moved to ameliorate this problem when it was a problem of both the past and the present. Regions are rather selfish entities in terms of how they operate; they don't often regulate themselves based on the broader framework of how all of their individual actions impact the game, and more often than not, they don't even regulate themselves based on the very same problems when confined within their own boundaries.

If we don't have a governing mechanism for regional office management that can be based off of a sensible and uniform formula, then there is no damn point of this convention and no damn point of us being here. The biggest problem of the past and present will continue to be the problems of the future. Those of you who haven't been around long enough to truly observe this need to listen to those of us who have been. If the Regions' numbers of offices are not regulated, then we are going to end up with more offices in the game than we have currently, because we have expanded the legislative branch and the Regions are not going to be unanimous, sensible and conscious about this fact in the long-term. Even if the current generation somehow does manage to do it, people years from now will not understand the problem and will replicate the same issues we face now without this regulation.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #695 on: January 09, 2016, 12:05:27 am »

After reading the President's arguments and weighing them my own concerns, Nay.
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Leinad
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« Reply #696 on: January 09, 2016, 02:05:14 am »

WAIT...and this may sound stupid...but...what is "nay" and what is "aye?"

Because NeverAgain and VPH sounded like they agree with me (that the clause should be struck, that regional governments should be allowed to increase the number of seats in their own legislature) but they said "nay," and if we're voting "to strike" it, wouldn't an "aye" be to support striking it, and giving regions the ability to increase their legislature size?

Or maybe I've misunderstood things.

Anyway, aye to strike it and let regions control their own legislature seat number, nay to include the part restricting region's this ability.

I'll edit this to make my vote bold and colorful when Truman clarifies.



The Regions most definitely do not possess nor will possess the foresight or ability to properly "reflect upon the mistakes of the past", because I've been screaming about the need to reduce the proliferation of offices for over two years and not a single Region properly moved to ameliorate this problem when it was a problem of both the past and the present. Regions are rather selfish entities in terms of how they operate; they don't often regulate themselves based on the broader framework of how all of their individual actions impact the game, and more often than not, they don't even regulate themselves based on the very same problems when confined within their own boundaries.

But is that the fault of the system, or failings on individual members of regional governments?

You're acting as if this is the equivalent of eating just one potato chip; that it is literally impossible for a regional government to make responsible decisions, or decrease their legislature size (even though I believe the South did that at some point--it used to be 5, now it's 3).

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Fair enough, although experience doesn't always define truth. I'd like to hear the opinion of veteran Atlasians who are generally in favor of regional control on this.

You know me, I don't think that the federal governments need to micromanage the regions, or should dictate their basic properties. I think it's a good thing if different regions do things differently--maybe one region has an auto-adjusting legislature like I've proposed, another has 3 members elected at once, another has 5 elected in two classes. And this works with the names, too--one region has a "Legislature," another has an "Assembly," another has a "Council." You get the idea.

If some people (not naming names, and I wouldn't even put you in this category, Adam) made the rules, we'd have 3 completely identical regions. And at what cost? Well, in addition to boredom, we'll have the cost of never seeing what works best. Who knows, maybe we decide some great mechanism for an auto-adjusting legislature, and it ends up being adopted by the house after great success in one of the regions.

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False, unless the regions up the legislatures to larger than the Senate itself.

We cut out two regions. That eliminates a lot of offices right there. Of course some of those were added back by bicameralism, but I believe there's still wiggle room to increase the number if the rightfully elected legislatures of a region (or even the people itself) decide more seats are appropriate.

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One of us will be around to tell them how it was done back in the day, surely.

Back in the 1700s (and no, I'm not doing a filibuster, although I wish that was possible in text-form--I'd be great at it), after the original Constitutional Convention, a citizen asked Benjamin Franklin what form of government they had decided upon. "A republic," he responded. "If you can keep it."

Bare with me. It'll make sense.

There is difficulty in maintaining any type of freedom. Humans are prone to mess stuff up, and then prone to proposing more government (or, in this case, federal) control to clean up the mess. But that takes away the wonderful qualities freedom provides--the flexibility to improve things, the clarity that a basic understanding of rights and responsibilities provides, etcetera. I'm speaking in general terms so that applies to both my anecdote and now--was it the best idea, back then, to just start out with a dictatorship to avoid the risk that a republic goes wrong?

Of course not, just as it is absurd to eliminate nearly all forms of regional autonomy for fear that the regions misuse it.

I think that made enough sense. I think you all understand the premise of my argument, though, even if Storytime with Leinad didn't work.
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« Reply #697 on: January 09, 2016, 06:40:50 am »

NAY
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #698 on: January 09, 2016, 10:04:24 am »

This isn't a question of "regional rights", but whether you can create a sustainable number of offices. You cannot just assume that people will be reasonable in the future and not create an excess number of legislative positions; look where that has gotten this game today.

I strongly encourage anyone, regardless of political affiliation, to vote NAY and keep this clause.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #699 on: January 09, 2016, 10:11:25 am »

NAY
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