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  Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
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Author Topic: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)  (Read 23626 times)
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #250 on: November 23, 2015, 03:12:29 am »

Yay, let's have only marginally-predictable elections with a 9-member chamber instead of entirely-predictable elections with a 5 or 7-member chamber. Roll Eyes

And why is everyone now talking about variable-sized chambers? We just had a principle vote on the size of the chamber. It's over.

I am not sure what the reference at the top is about. I recall you saying STV only works at higher numbers than five and I acknowledged the alternatives. I was simply making the case for having them At-Large by illustrating the superiority a larger number of At-Large seats would have versus the current system using the same method.

I agree on variable House size, but for a different reason. Lowering the number of house seats would lower the benefits of its larger size and the competativeness of the elections. I have also concluded that the system is flawed from its use with the Imperial Legislature last year. There times when people were brought out to vote just to keep the size from contracting.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #251 on: November 23, 2015, 05:04:26 am »

OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
  • YES
[   ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[3] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[1] From Districts
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Chromium R Florida
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« Reply #252 on: November 23, 2015, 01:04:55 pm »

Yay, let's have only marginally-predictable elections with a 9-member chamber instead of entirely-predictable elections with a 5 or 7-member chamber. Roll Eyes

And why is everyone now talking about variable-sized chambers? We just had a principle vote on the size of the chamber. It's over.

I am not sure what the reference at the top is about. I recall you saying STV only works at higher numbers than five and I acknowledged the alternatives. I was simply making the case for having them At-Large by illustrating the superiority a larger number of At-Large seats would have versus the current system using the same method.

I was protesting in general that anything less than 11 is going to be weaksauce in terms of really making elections competitive and less predictable, while also allowing individuals from all walks of life the ability to get elected and ensuring that there is clear contrast in the inherent value of a seat in each chamber based on the number of people in each.

A 7-member chamber (which some were supporting) is essentially identical to a 5-member chamber, and certainly comparable in "value" when placed alongside a 6-member Senate. A 9-member chamber is only marginally better, but will still likely require a relatively large amount of support in order to win. Think about it this way: the more seats there are, the harder it is for major parties to field candidates to win as many as possible. Anyone against the "duopoly" should have supported a 11-member chamber on that virtue alone.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #253 on: November 23, 2015, 02:48:26 pm »

Yup, and:

[1] At-Large
[2] from Districts
[3] from Regions
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #254 on: November 23, 2015, 07:25:57 pm »

Sorry for being tardy to vote on the house size. It has been a hectic week for me.

Anyway, I wish we had gone with a larger house. It seems silly to me that we'd have a 9 member house and a 6 person senate, but I don't think going smaller than 6 in the senate is workable. I guess we are stuck with a 9 member house. At least 7 didn't make it.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #255 on: November 24, 2015, 03:25:09 am »

Isn't this a 48-hours vote? Truman opened the vote November 22 at 03:00 PM. So I guess it's still open.

A vote is now open on the following proposals. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

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No
Abstain

I'm voting Abstain because I have the fear that all 9 seats elected at-large would lead to a not exciting election, like the current At-Large ones. But at the same tim we can't have all seats elected by districts.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #256 on: November 24, 2015, 11:42:56 am »

Isn't this a 48-hours vote? Truman opened the vote November 22 at 03:00 PM. So I guess it's still open.
Yeah, the vote is still open (until later today, that is). For some reason, I thought I had opened the vote on Saturday.
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #257 on: November 24, 2015, 04:05:35 pm »

No, At-Large
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #258 on: November 24, 2015, 04:42:31 pm »

Nay

[1] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[3] From Districts
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #259 on: November 24, 2015, 11:26:18 pm »

Now the vote is closed.

RESULT of the PRINCIPLE VOTE on FLUCTUATING MEMBERSHIP
NAY (14)
AYE (4)
Abstain (3)

With a majority opposed, this proposal has been rejected.

RESULT of the PRINCIPLE VOTE on HOUSE ELECTIONS
At-Large (13)
Districts (5)
Regionally (2)
Abstain (1)

With a majority in favor, the Convention has elected to establish At-Large elections for the House of Representatives.


With these last two principle votes completed, this is what we have so far in terms of a draft of the new National Legislature:

2 House Congress (Senate + House of Reps)
       Senate: 2 Members/Region (6 total), Region's regulate elections
       House: 9 Members, elected at-large (PR)
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #260 on: November 27, 2015, 11:47:25 pm »

Not to jump the gun, but am I correct in saying that the next task would be determing the election method for the At-Large House seats?
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #261 on: November 28, 2015, 09:09:48 am »

Do we need to establish that as a Constitutional matter?  Or can we leave it up to the Senate/the House/the People?
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #262 on: November 28, 2015, 02:40:09 pm »

Do we need to establish that as a Constitutional matter?  Or can we leave it up to the Senate/the House/the People?

     Isn't it statutory already? We should probably just keep it that way.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #263 on: November 29, 2015, 02:58:05 am »

Yes, but we voted to wipe all statutes, and the current Proportional Representation Act is designed for a five seat election to SEnate not a nine seat house election.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #264 on: November 30, 2015, 04:28:47 pm »

     What I mean is, we should continue to codify it in the statute. How best to do that is an issue to be addressed in transitional committees.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #265 on: November 30, 2015, 05:11:26 pm »

I think it would be a good idea to include a general description of how the House should be elected, but we needn't make it too technical. Something akin to Article II, Section 1 of the US Constitution would be appropriate: we would simply state the basic process for electing Representatives and leave the details to Congress.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #266 on: December 01, 2015, 09:58:39 am »

     What I mean is, we should continue to codify it in the statute. How best to do that is an issue to be addressed in transitional committees.

Yeah, exactly.  I don't think it would be wise to make the laws harder to change in case the ConCon screws up somehow.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #267 on: December 03, 2015, 11:16:20 pm »

I will introduce an amendment incorporating the results of the last several principle votes shortly.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #268 on: December 04, 2015, 08:40:22 pm »

I offer the following amendment:

Quote
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Changes Made by This Amendment
  • Incorporates VP as "President of Congress"; allows him to break ties in the Senate (1.2)
  • Incorporates Principle Vote to leave Senate elections to the Regions (2.1)
  • Outlines impeachment procedure (2.5, 3.4)
  • Renames Senate PPT the "Senatus Princeps" (PPT literally translates to "president for the time being," which is a strange title for the permanent presiding officer) (2.3)
  • Sets HoR size at 9 Members, elected at-large (3.1)
  • Allows each chamber to establish its own rules of order (4.1, 4.2)
  • Outlines legislative process
  • Incorporates result of principle vote on Federal Powers (6.1)
  • Incorporates limits on Congressional authority found in US Constitution (7.1-7.5)

Delegates have 24 hours to object to Truman's amendment. HOWEVER, because it will be much easier to adopt this amendment and then make changes as necessary that it would be to reject this text and then start again from scratch, I respectfully ask that you refrain from objecting to this amendment. This is by no means a final text nor is it intended to settle every question before us: rather, my objective was to incorporate the changes made by the last several principle votes and to move to a text closer stylistically to the other Articles currently being drafted.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #269 on: December 05, 2015, 01:49:12 pm »

     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #270 on: December 06, 2015, 01:34:48 pm »

Seeing no objection, Truman's amendment has been ADOPTED.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #271 on: December 07, 2015, 06:22:41 pm »

Thoughts? I know it's finals season/the holidays, but we can't afford to let the debate die.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #272 on: December 09, 2015, 01:19:50 am »

     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.

I suppose I agree, just as long as it is not a Senate Speaker, and is something similar to a Senate President, I'll be fine with it.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #273 on: December 09, 2015, 07:51:50 am »

     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.

I suppose I agree, just as long as it is not a Senate Speaker, and is something similar to a Senate President, I'll be fine with it.
We could use Prime Minister (or similar) to avoid confusion of having two people with 'President' in their title - and as PMs are generally Heads of Government and Presidents are generally Heads of State.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #274 on: December 09, 2015, 03:19:03 pm »

     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.

I suppose I agree, just as long as it is not a Senate Speaker, and is something similar to a Senate President, I'll be fine with it.
We could use Prime Minister (or similar) to avoid confusion of having two people with 'President' in their title - and as PMs are generally Heads of Government and Presidents are generally Heads of State.

I'd rather we abstained from using parliamentary titles, especially considering the existence of the Mock Parliament game. Calling the Senate leader "Prime Minister" might also create confusion for those familiar with parliamentary systems, as the post would not have any executive powers. I proposed "Senatus Princeps" (literally "Senate Leader") because that was the title given to the most senior member of the Roman Senate, a position that bears certain similarities to our PPT. I agree that we should avoid something along the lines of Senate President, especially considering that the VP has been styled "President of the Congress" - such only leads to confusion.

If there is a strong desire among the delegates to replace "Senatus Princeps" with another title, we could hold a quick principle vote to settle the matter.
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