Abortion and the Death Penalty

[TheWildCard]

For the longest time I've heard that "If you are against abortion and for the death penalty your logic and/or belief is flawed".

Now here's my problem with that. I am against abortions past the 1st trimester. I am also a firm supporter in the death penalty when a jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that someone has murdered in cold blood.

Here is how I draw the line. You can't compare a fetus in its second trimester to a convicted killer. The fetus has never had time to learn or to do harm to others. While the killer has lived and has done something horrible by taking away the life of another individual.

My question is basically do you agree with the common "If you're against abortions and you're for the death penalty your belief system doesn't make sense" or would you agree with my statement more?

[Gabu]

The only people with whom I have a problem is those who proudly state that they're "pro-life" without any added qualifiers and yet are also in favor of the death penalty.  Being against abortion and for the death penalty, however, creates no contradiction that I can see.

[A18]

Why? It's not as if pro-choice applies to every situation.

[Gabu]

Why? It's not as if pro-choice applies to every situation.

It simply strikes me as a blatant contradiction to walk around proclaiming that you're in favor of life in general while fully supporting the execution of prisoners.  If they specified it as being "pro-fetus" or something like that, fine, but not "pro-life".

[A18]

By the same logic, it would seem to me to be a blatant contradiction to go around proclaiming yourself "pro-choice" and at the same time opposing Social Security choice and school choice.

[Gabu]

By the same logic, it would seem to me to be a blatant contradiction to go around proclaiming yourself "pro-choice" and at the same time opposing Social Security choice and school choice.

It's kind of disingenuous to suggest that everyone who uses the term "pro-life" is only using the term purely to identify themselves as being against abortion.  It's blatantly obvious that the term was chosen as if to say that anyone who disagrees is "pro-death" - which is why I find it kind of odd that it's likely the case that more "pro-life" people support the death penalty than those in the other camp.

That said, I don't particularly like the term "pro-choice" either, but that's a different story.  Both terms are essentially meaningless catch-phrases that are geared to make the opposition look like monsters: either in favor of murder or against freedom.

[A18]

I think you're reading way too much into those words. All they ever meant to me were pro- and anti- abortion.

[TheWildCard]

I think you're reading way too much into those words. All they ever meant to me were pro- and anti- abortion.

That is how I've always seen it. But, Gabu's points are interesting and have merit.

[Ebowed]

I do not believe that there is a contradiction in the beliefs, but I do find a problem with people who favor the death penalty but call themselves strictly pro-life anyway.  It seems like a contradiction in terms; as Gabu suggested, it would be better to say "pro-fetus" or some better term.  I'm against both abortion and the death penalty, in all cases, so I guess you could call me an extreme pro-lifer... or as Flyers would say, really anti-choice.

[Richard]

Why? It's not as if pro-choice applies to every situation.

It simply strikes me as a blatant contradiction to walk around proclaiming that you're in favor of life in general while fully supporting the execution of prisoners.  If they specified it as being "pro-fetus" or something like that, fine, but not "pro-life".

Um, so if you're pro-life you are, of course, vegetarian, right?

[minionofmidas]

Why? It's not as if pro-choice applies to every situation.

It simply strikes me as a blatant contradiction to walk around proclaiming that you're in favor of life in general while fully supporting the execution of prisoners.  If they specified it as being "pro-fetus" or something like that, fine, but not "pro-life".

Um, so if you're pro-life you are, of course, vegetarian, right?

Vegetables have a life too, you know.

There's nothing "contradictory" about your position, Wildcard. It's just not based on a fundamental belief in the sanctity of all life, or all human life.

[TheWildCard]

Why? It's not as if pro-choice applies to every situation.

It simply strikes me as a blatant contradiction to walk around proclaiming that you're in favor of life in general while fully supporting the execution of prisoners.  If they specified it as being "pro-fetus" or something like that, fine, but not "pro-life".

Um, so if you're pro-life you are, of course, vegetarian, right?

Vegetables have a life too, you know.

There's nothing "contradictory" about your position, Wildcard. It's just not based on a fundamental belief in the sanctity of all life, or all human life.

I would say my stance is for the sanctity of all "Innocent" human life (innocent in quotes because it is my definition of innocent).

If I did consider myself a true pro-lifer this would be my argument for the term: that the fact that I'm for protecting the sanctity of all "innocent" human life goes with out saying. Plus the term Pro-Innocent Life is way too long.

[Beet]

Plus the term Pro-Innocent Life is way too long.

Bible of American Democracy, Verse 4133:

And then, the Great Public Attention Span turned around, and touched two and a half words. And it said Oooooo! and proclaimed it to be too long. And then it returned to one and a half words.

[minionofmidas]

Fair enough.
Noone is Innocent is my position, though.

[Brandon H]

I'm still mixed on the death penalty. My religion says to oppose it, but there are some people out there that deserve it (most recently they guy in Illinois who killed his daughter and her friend - but Ill. former Gov. put a freeze on the death penalty in his last day of office so he probably won't be executed anyway). However there are a number of issues more important than the death penalty that this will rarely affect my vote for a candidate in an election.

I saw a survey last week "Most Americans Pro-Choice - Support Right to Choose on Social Security". Nader also said to people who did not want him to run that they are hypocrits for being Pro-Choice on abortion but not on Ballot Access.

However, between abortion and the death penalty, most people support one and oppose the other. Rarely do you find someone supporting or opposing both.

[nclib]

I am pro-choice and anti-death penalty, which I believe to be consistent. This quote from Gloria Steinem pretty much expresses my position:

"There is a difference between a fetus that cannot
survive on its own, and an autonomous human being. I
find the pro-choice, anti-death penalty positions
consistent because both support the value of the
individual, and both oppose the state's power over the
individual--whether to make decisions about our
reproductive lives, or the length of our lives."

As for terminology regarding "right-to-lifers" who are pro-capital punishment, I believe it is contradictory because a right (unlike a priviledge) can't be lost and if a fetus has a 'right' to life, it can't be taken away under any circumstances.

[Gabu]

Why? It's not as if pro-choice applies to every situation.

It simply strikes me as a blatant contradiction to walk around proclaiming that you're in favor of life in general while fully supporting the execution of prisoners.  If they specified it as being "pro-fetus" or something like that, fine, but not "pro-life".

Um, so if you're pro-life you are, of course, vegetarian, right?

All I'm saying is that the word "pro-life" by itself means, simply, "in favor of life".  Given that there are no qualifiers applied to it when you simply call yourself "pro-life", the word therefore means that you're in favor of life in general, regardless of the circumstances.  It seems to me, in addition, that you can't exactly favor life in general if you support the death penalty.  Therefore, I personally find a direct contradiction between calling yourself "pro-life" and being in favor of death for criminals.

You can argue that the word was devised to simply mean "against abortion" all you want, but the word "pro-life" is what it is and means what it does: "in favor of life".  The word for "against abortion" would be "anti-abortion".

[Richard]

"There is a difference between a fetus that cannot
survive on its own, and an autonomous human being. I
find the pro-choice, anti-death penalty positions
consistent because both support the value of the
individual, and both oppose the state's power over the
individual--whether to make decisions about our
reproductive lives, or the length of our lives."

CLEARLY, if you oppose the state's power over the individual, you do not believe in regulating guns in any way or form.  Good for you.

[Richard]

Why? It's not as if pro-choice applies to every situation.

It simply strikes me as a blatant contradiction to walk around proclaiming that you're in favor of life in general while fully supporting the execution of prisoners.  If they specified it as being "pro-fetus" or something like that, fine, but not "pro-life".

Um, so if you're pro-life you are, of course, vegetarian, right?

All I'm saying is that theword "pro-life" by itself means, simply, "in favor of life".  Given that there are no qualifiers applied to it when you simply call yourself "pro-life", the word therefore means that you're in favor of life in general, regardless of the circumstances.  It seems to me, in addition, that you can't exactly favor life in general if you support the death penalty.  Therefore, I personally find a direct contradiction between calling yourself "pro-life" and being in favor of death for criminals.

You can argue that the word was devised to simply mean "against abortion" all you want, but the word "pro-life" is what it is and means what it does: "in favor of life".  The word for "against abortion" would be "anti-abortion".

What bullsh**t.  But whatever.  You're saying that because you're pro-life, if someone is about to rape your mom and all your decision is a very black-or-white "let the rape continue or kill the rapist" you would pick life because you're pro life and that means picking life all the time.

[Richard]

I believe it is contradictory because a right (unlike a priviledge) can't be lost and if a fetus has a 'right' to life, it can't be taken away under any circumstances.

More utter bullsh**t.  In that case, no person has a right to life because I can just take a gun and kill people (take life away, therefore it is a priviledge). 

Holy crap.  You two prove that the collective IQ of the world is a constant.

[minionofmidas]

I believe it is contradictory because a right (unlike a priviledge) can't be lost and if a fetus has a 'right' to life, it can't be taken away under any circumstances.

More utter bullsh**t.  In that case, no person has a right to life because I can just take a gun and kill people (take life away, therefore it is a priviledge). 

Holy crap.  You two prove that the collective IQ of the world is a constant.

No, because you don`t have the right to do that.
But yeah, obviously anyone who is prochoice doesn't believe in a right to life and nor does anyone pro death penalty. Or anyone pro allowing you to go around and kill people at random.

[Richard]

I believe it is contradictory because a right (unlike a priviledge) can't be lost and if a fetus has a 'right' to life, it can't be taken away under any circumstances.

More utter bullsh**t.  In that case, no person has a right to life because I can just take a gun and kill people (take life away, therefore it is a priviledge). 

Holy crap.  You two prove that the collective IQ of the world is a constant.

No, because you don`t have the right to do that.

Circular reasoning?  A is because of B, which is because of A?

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In English?

[minionofmidas]

I believe it is contradictory because a right (unlike a priviledge) can't be lost and if a fetus has a 'right' to life, it can't be taken away under any circumstances.

More utter bullsh**t.  In that case, no person has a right to life because I can just take a gun and kill people (take life away, therefore it is a priviledge). 

Holy crap.  You two prove that the collective IQ of the world is a constant.

No, because you don`t have the right to do that.

Circular reasoning?  A is because of B, which is because of A?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In English?

Well basically the point would be that in practice life is a privilege, not a right, and that, although noone says it because it doesn`t sound too nice, everyone`s views are according.
Those who believe you can abort a baby believe you can legally take life away.
Those who believe you can execute a killer believe etc
Those who believe it*s okay if you walk around killing people at will believe etc.
Ie, no right to life, no matter who you ask.

[jokerman]

For the longest time I've heard that "If you are against abortion and for the death penalty your logic and/or belief is flawed".

Now here's my problem with that. I am against abortions past the 1st trimester. I am also a firm supporter in the death penalty when a jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that someone has murdered in cold blood.

Here is how I draw the line. You can'y compare a fetus in its second trimester to a convicted killer. The fetus has never had time to learn or to do harm to others. While the killer has lived and has done something horrible by taking away the life of another individual.

My question is basically do you basically agree with the common "If you're against abortions and you're for the death penalty your belief system doesn't make sense" or would you agree with my statement?

I agree with some of what you said.  To compare killing babies to killing evil murders, wow, - I just can't understand that.

[dazzleman]

I think it's far more contradictory to support abortion, and oppose the death penalty, than the other way around.

Logically, I find it hard to understand the logic behind support for killing innocent unborn babies, but insisting that it's wrong to execute brutal murderers.

I have come back to strongly supporting the death penalty.  There are some crimes that are so heinous that the death penalty is the only appropriate response.