Understanding Islam, and reading the Qur'an chapter-by-chapter
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  Understanding Islam, and reading the Qur'an chapter-by-chapter
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The Mikado
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2015, 08:42:01 PM »

You are going to see a lot more about Jesus as you go forward. Muhammad was evidently shocked and horrified by the idea that God could have a flesh-and-blood son and viewed that as idolatrous, but was also very impressed with Jesus as a prophet. Muhammad also will maintain that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, but rather, a body double of some sort was crucified in his place.

The Cow is slow going, to be sure. Muhammad by this point in his career was deeply incensed that the Jews of Medina, a community whom he thought would be a natural audience for his message, both scorned him and outright allied with the pagan Meccans against his Muslim community. This is about the time Islam is trying to forge an identity that isn't Arab-style Judaic monotheism.
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2015, 08:26:16 PM »

You are going to see a lot more about Jesus as you go forward. Muhammad was evidently shocked and horrified by the idea that God could have a flesh-and-blood son and viewed that as idolatrous, but was also very impressed with Jesus as a prophet. Muhammad also will maintain that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, but rather, a body double of some sort was crucified in his place.

This is one of the biggest differences between the two religions. Obviously if someone over simplifies by saying "all religions basically teach the same thing" that is simply not true. The only area for common ground would be to say that either religion could get you to heaven. There is evidence for this in both the Koran and the Bible, but that truth escape most people. (of course, I don't believe in an eternal hell, which makes what I said problematic for me and a lot of others, but it is a valid point, I think, nonetheless).
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Blue3
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« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2015, 10:13:50 PM »

Sura 2: the Cow... continued...







Picking up where were left off, with Ayah/Verse 190. We have already covered about two-thirds of this sura, but now it gets much more detailed, and we begin with a relevant topic to recent news.
 
 
The Rules of War
 
Fight in God's cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits.*
* In the footnotes: the Arabic command "la ta'tadu" [to "do not overstep the limits"] is so general that commentators have agreed that it includes prohibition of starting hostilities, fighting non-combatants, disproportionate response to aggression, etc.

God does not love those who overstep the limits.

Kill them where you encounter them,*
* In the footnotes: Muslims were concerned whether it was permitted to retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca when on pilgrimage. They are here given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it.

and drive them out where they drove you out,

for persecution is more serious than killing.*
* In the footnotes: 'Persecuting you unlawfully is worse than you killing them in the precincts in self-defense.' The article "al-" in Arabic sometimes takes the place of a pronoun, as here 'their persecution' and 'your killing them.'

Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them-- this is what such disbelievers deserve--

but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful.

Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship [at the Sacred Mosque by those who were no longer persecuted] is devoted to God.

If they cease hostilities, there can be no [further[ hostility, except towards aggressors.

A sacred month for a sacred month: violation of sanctity [calls for] fair retribution. So if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him as he attacked you, but be mindful of God, and know that He is with those who are mindful of Him.

Spend in God's cause: do not contribute to your destruction with your own hands*, but do good, for God loves those who do good.
* In the footnotes: this verse is generally understood to outlaw Suicide and other forms of self-harm.

So, that is the main chunk in this sura of the discussion on violence and the rules of law. That's the entire section, I didn't skip a single verse or clause, and those footnotes are just as I found them and not my own commentary.
 
Here, we see how easily things can be taken out of context by either Extremists of Islamophobes, but seeing the entire passage, and in true context with the help of the footnotes, paints a much more complete picture.
 
The Qur'an outright forbids suicide missions, or other forms of contributing to your own destruction, which so many terrorists use as a tactic.
 
The Qur'an makes clear that if you attack Muslims or severely persecute them... such as how the elites in Mecca had been torturing and killing Muslims, as I described in my summary of the life of Mohammed (that is what they mean by "persecution")... they will attack back and keep fighting.
 
But if the aggressors/persecutors stop fighting, the Qur'an calls for Muslims to cease hostilities.
 
Muslims aren't called to be pacifists, they are called to fight in self-defense. It is definitely more similar to the Old Testament's "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" concept of fair retribution.
 
But they are forbidden to be aggressors or attack those who aren't or stop fighting.
 
I wonder how the Qur'an will treat the teachings of Jesus, such as turning the other cheek and loving/forgiving your enemies. I have a prediction: that would Jesus calls for would be ideal and is holy, but that God still permits these other methods as more pragmatic especially when it comes to self-preservation. But we shall see.
 
 
 
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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2015, 10:17:14 PM »

2. The Cow (continued)
 
 
 
 
After the discussion on war, there is more discussion on Pilgrimages (the major one, and minor), the rules of pilgrimages, how one can make them up, charity and fasting, etc. Then it gets into some basic theology.
 
 
 
 
The Hereafter, the Devil, the Good, "Everyone Hurts", Charity, Fighting, and Hope
 
Then there's this thought on prayer in ayah 200-202, on how Islam values both this life and the next:
There are some who pray, 'Our Lord, give us good in this world,' and they will have no share in the Hereafter;
others pray, "Our Lord, give us the good in this world and in the Hereafter, and protect us from the torment of the Fire.'
They will have the share they have worked for: God is swift in reckoning.
 
In a little bit, there's this warning and description of evil's temptation, in ayah 204-209:
There is [a kind of] man whose views on the life of this world may please you [Prophet], he even calls on God to witness what is in his heart, yet he is the bitterest of opponents.When he leaves, he sets out to spread corruption in the land, destroying crops and livestock-- God does not like corruption.When he is told, 'Beware of God,' his arrogance leads him to sin. Hell is enough for him, a dreadful resting place.But there is also a kind of man who gives his life away to please God, and God is most compassionate to His servants.You who believe, who enter wholeheartedly into peace [submission to God] and do not follow in Satan's footsteps, for he is your sworn enemy. If you slip back after clear proof has come to you, then be aware that God is almighty and wise.
I like how seductive they make evil seem here, that description at the beginning here.
 
Later, in ayah 212 and beyond, on the hereafter and how "everybody hurts" yet there's hope:
The life of this world is made to seem glamorous to those who disbelieve, and they laugh at those who believe. But those who are mindful of God will be above them on the Day of Resurrection: God provides immeasurably for whoever He pleases. Mankind was a single community, then God sent prophets to bring good news and warning, and with them he sent the Scripture with the Truth, to judge between people in their disagreements.
 
[...]
 
Do you [believers] suppose that you will enter the Garden without first having suffered like those who passed away before you? They were afflicted by misfortune and hardship, and they were so shaken that even [their] messenger and the believers with him cried, 'When will God's help arrive?' Truly, God's help is near.
 
They ask you [Prophet] what they should give. Say, 'Whatever good things you give should be for parents, close relatives, orphans, the needy, and travelers. God is well aware of whatever good you do. Fighting has been ordained for you, though it is hard for you. You may dislike something although it is good for you, or like something although it is bad for you: God knows and you do not.'





Rules on a variety of topics: Drinking, Gambling, Orphans, Idols, Menstruation, Cleaning, Sex, Oaths, Divorce, Women, Breastfeeding
 
The Qur'an then goes on to get into the particulars about a variety of topics, such as taking care of Orphans, and not marrying those who worship idols. Right before that, there's this on drinking and gambling, for which God gives some very short answers in ayah 219, which I'll quote just to show its own simplicity:
They ask you [Prophet] about intoxicants and gambling: say, 'There is great sin in both, and some benefit for both, the sin is greater than the benefit.'
They ask you again what they should give: say, 'Give what you can spare.'
 
It moves on to mention Menstruation, informing how it's a painful process for women, so keep away from women during it and until they're cleansed.
 
The Qur'an then makes a tangent to go on and say in general:
[God] loves those who keep themselves clean.
 
The Qur'an then clarifies if it's okay to have sex in positions other than "missionary," as I previewed in the introduction to this sura:
Your wives are [like] your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like, and send [something good] ahead of yourselves.
There you have it. Tongue In the footnotes, it explains that when Muslims immigrated to Medina they heard that a child born from a woman approached from behind would have a squint. So God wanted to dismiss that nonsense officially in the Qur'an.
 
It moves on to Oaths, how they shouldn't keep you from doing good and how people won't be judged on oaths uttered unintentionally, giving some flexibility.
 
Then on to Divorce, and how Women have rights and should have their fair share, and how men can't take back what they gave to their now-divorced ex-wives. There's a lot of details in here, starting in ayah 226, but I won't cover too much of it except highlights because it covers a lot. It also seems to prohibit domestic abuse, saying women cannot be held onto with the intent to harm them or commit aggression, in ayah 231. It also prevents a person's family from interfering in whether a couple should remain married or not.
 
It goes on to Breastfeeding and weaning, and then on to the topic of Widowhood, and then returns to Divorce and how even if a marriage is broken up before consummation that a fair provision should still be made for them. Then it returns to Widows, and how husbands should make sure they'll be well taken care of for at least a year after the husband dies, and how a widow may not be expelled from her house in that time.
 
 
 
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2015, 10:17:54 PM »

2. The Cow (concluded)
 
 
 
 

King Saul, the Ark of the Covenant, David and Goliath, Jesus son of Mary and the holy spirit
 
There's a shift in topic, and a return to God's history with the Children of Israel. This time the story is recounted of how Israel wanted to be like other countries and have a government some time after Moses, and how a prophet announced that Talut (Saul) was chosen to be King in ayah 247. The Qur'an says the people disliked the choice because Saul came from a poor background instead of riches. The prophet answers with how God is all-knowing, and then tells a story of Saul/Talut and the Ark of the Covenant, and of how David defeats Goliath against the odds because God was with them.
 
It again mentions Jesus son of Mary in ayah 253, and how he was strengthened with the holy spirit, and how God gave clear signs to show his importance, but not much more on that topic here. Aside from repeating that there will come a (Last) Day where there is no bargaining or intercession.
 
 
 
 
God on His Throne, and "There is No Compulsion in Religion", Abraham and Resurrection.
 
Here are some of the more famous passages in the Qur'an, in ayah 255 and 256.
 
The "Throne Verse" (255):
God: there is no god but Him, the Ever Living, the Ever Watchful. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. All that is in the heavens and in the earth belongs to Him. Who is there that can intercede with Him except by His leave? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, but they do not comprehend any of His knowledge except what He wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth; it does not weary Him to preserve them both. He is the Most High, the Tremendous.
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
Ayah 256:
There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in God has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. God is all hearing and all knowing.
 
Some more short stories follow on Abraham, and a few examples of how God has the power to resurrect.
 
 
 
 
More on Charity, Kind Words, Forgiveness
 
The Qur'an again goes over the importance of charity and kind words and forgiveness, with more parables and stories beginning with ayah 261.
 
It reminds people that God is self-sufficient.
 
God promises you His forgiveness and His abundance: God is limitless and all knowing, and He gives wisdom to whoever He will. Whoever is given wisdom has truly been given much good, but only those with this insight bear this in mind.
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
Mohammed is told, like what Jesus preached, that giving charity to the needy in private is better than doing so publically, but both are good.
 
 
 
 
Usury, Debt, Witnesses, Concealing Evidence
 
Ayah 274 to ayah 281:
 
Those who give, out of their own possessions, by night and by day, in private and in public, will have their reward with their Lord: no fear for them, nor will they grieve.
 
But those who take usury will rise up on the Day of Resurrection like someone tormented by Satan's touch. That is because they say, "Trade and usury are the same,' but God has allowed trade and forbidden usury. Whoever, on receiving God's warning, stops taking usury may keep his past gains-- God will be his judge-- but whoever goes back to usury will be an inhabitant of the Fire, there to remain. God blights usury, but blesses charitable deeds with multiple increase: He does not love the ungrateful sinner.
 
Those who believe, do good deeds, keep up the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms will have their reward with their Lord: no fear for them, nor will they grieve. You who believe, beware of God: give up any outstanding dues from usury, if you are true believers. If you do not, then be warned of war from God and His Messenger. You shall have your capital if you repent, without suffering loss or causing others to suffer loss. If the debtor is in difficulty, then delay things until matters become easier for him; still, if you were to write it off as an act of charity, that would be better for you, if only you knew. Beware of a Day when you will be returned to God: every soul will be paid for in full for what it has earned, and no one will be wrong.
 
 
Usury is condemned here in probably some of the strongest terms possible. It can mean the practice of making unethical monetary loans that unfairly enrich the lender, a "loan shark," or it can generally mean charging Interest on loans at all.
 
God clearly does not approve of the Big Banks in the Qur'an.
 
It then goes over some rules concerning debt in general. How it should be put down in writing. If the debtor has a mental disability, then the debtor should have a legal guardian overseeing the debt to ensure its fairness. Two men can be witnesses, or a man and two women, and witnesses cannot refuse a summons. If there is no scribe, something should be handed over a security.
 
And then there's a brief command, to "not conceal evidence."
 
 
 
 
Ending
 
After that, this sura ends with the following two verses (285 & 286), with a statement of faith and with a prayer:
 
The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, as do the faithful. They all believe in God, His angels, His scriptures, and His messengers. 'We make no distinction between any of His messengers,' they say, ' We hear and obey. Grant us Your forgiveness, our Lord. To You we all return!
 
God does not burden any soul with more than it can bear: each gains whatever good it has done, and suffers its bad-- 'Lord, do not take us to take if we forget or make mistakes. Lord, do not burden us as You burdened those before us. Lord, do not burden us with more than we have strength to bear. Pardon us, forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are our Protector, so help us against the disbelievers.'
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
 
Thus ends the second sura, The Cow.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Let me know how I'm doing so far, please leave comments! Thanks to everyone else who has already commented and initiated discussion. This was the longest section by far, so I hope to have Sura 3 done soon!
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2015, 10:06:31 AM »

Very cool. You're doing great! Your commentary is fun to read.

I think I finished the 3rd sura a few days ago. It talks more about Jesus. The similarities and differences between the Muslim and Christian outlooks on Jesus are very interesting. Anyway, it's finals week so I haven't been reading so much lately.
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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2015, 02:35:38 PM »

correct. So when a Muslim says there is no God but Allah, they are really saying there is no god but God. Allah and Jehovah are both God, in a sense the same God. They are only different gods because people create God in their own image. So every Muslim and every Christian has a different "image" of God in their mind. It is the figurative chicken and egg, did "god" create humans in "his" image or have humans created "god" in their own limited image of what god would be if god existed? There's the conundrum.

The same God?!  Really?!  Who are you to equate them as worshipping the same God?

Have you not heard that the New Testament claims that Jesus is God and that as far as it is concerned, and even as far as Jesus' own words, rejection of Jesus' identity and resurrection is tantamount to rejecting God?  Therefore, Christians do NOT worship the same God as Muslims, since Christians worship Jesus as God and Muslims reject Jesus as God.
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2015, 02:54:52 PM »

Yes, you are right that Muslims and Christians differ on who God is.

correct. So when a Muslim says there is no God but Allah, they are really saying there is no god but God. Allah and Jehovah are both God, in a sense the same God. They are only different gods because people create God in their own image. So every Muslim and every Christian has a different "image" of God in their mind. It is the figurative chicken and egg, did "god" create humans in "his" image or have humans created "god" in their own limited image of what god would be if god existed? There's the conundrum.

The same God?!  Really?!  Who are you to equate them as worshipping the same God?

Have you not heard that the New Testament claims that Jesus is God and that as far as it is concerned, and even as far as Jesus' own words, rejection of Jesus' identity and resurrection is tantamount to rejecting God?  Therefore, Christians do NOT worship the same God as Muslims, since Christians worship Jesus as God and Muslims reject Jesus as God.
The same "God" in the sense that "God" is sometimes used.
The fact is that Allah simply means God.
For example,

"In God We Trust" or "One nation under God". Those phrases don't specify which God.

I also said that they were different. Each person has a different "image" of God in their mind.
The Bible speaks of the image of God in the first chapter. Does any person fully understand what the term God means and if that God exists, what he (or she) is like?
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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2015, 03:11:45 PM »

By the way my only point was that "Allah" simply means "God". In other words "Allah" isn't the name of the specific God that Muslims worship although their idea of God is obviously different
from the idea that Jesus is God.
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DudeOfDudes
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2015, 03:18:42 PM »
« Edited: December 09, 2015, 03:30:14 PM by DudeOfDudes »

I also said that they were different. Each person has a different "image" of God in their mind.
The Bible speaks of the image of God in the first chapter. Does any person fully understand what the term God means and if that God exists, what he (or she) is like?

...By the way my only point was that "Allah" simply means "God". In other words "Allah" isn't the name of the specific God that Muslims worship although their idea of God is obviously different
from the idea that Jesus is God.

YES, the Old Testament did not give us an image of God, which is why God came to earth in the form of Jesus Christ, so that men would know who God was...so the image of God is NOT left to the individual, as you claim, but is proclaimed in the New Testament.  

John 14:8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

Heb 1:3 "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being..."

2Cor 4:4 "Christ, who is the image of God"

Col 1:15 "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."

Likewise the name of God in the New Testament is NOT generic, but is also stated:

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So, there is no possible way to reconcile Islam with Christianity as Christianity claims an exclusive path to God through accepting Jesus Christ as God's Son and believing in his resurrection from the dead, both of which Islam rejects.

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them."
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2015, 04:36:05 PM »
« Edited: December 09, 2015, 04:39:48 PM by Teach Peace. »

DudeofDudes,
By the way, since this is your first day here, welcome.
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2015, 04:41:17 PM »

DudeofDudes,
By the way, since this is your first day here, welcome.

Let's just say that this is far from being his first day here.
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« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2015, 12:11:02 AM »

Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, and will come again.

But, like Jews, they don't think even the Messiah can be divine.


Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses, King David, Jesus, etc.


They even talk about Mary, mother of Jesus, more in the Qur'an than in the Bible.

Moses is mentioned more in the Qur'an than any other human.
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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2016, 08:37:57 PM »
« Edited: January 25, 2016, 08:40:56 PM by Blue3 »

Sura 3: "The Family of Imran"
 
Imran is the father of Mary, grandfather of Jesus Christ.
 
This is another Medinan sura, from when Mohammed was already ruling in Yathrib/Medina, in the last 10 years of his life.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Confirmation of the Torah and the Gospel
 
It begins like the others, and also confirms that the Bible ("the Torah and the Gospel") did come from God.
 
Ayah 1-4:
 
In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy!
 
Alif Lam Mim
 
God: there is no god but Him, the Ever Live, the Ever Watchful.
 
Step by step, He has sent the Scripture down to you [Prophet] with the Truth, confirming what went before: He sent down the Torah and the Gospel earlier as a guide for people and he has sent down the distinction [between right and wrong].
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Qur'an says not all of the Qur'an (or earlier scriptures) are meant to be taken literally
 
After reaffirming the Last Day, the power and knowledge of God, how he shaped us in the Womb, there comes this, beginning in Ayah 7:
 
Some of [the Scriptures'] verses are definite in meaning -- these are the cornerstone[mother] of the Scripture -- and others are ambiguous. The perverse at heart eagerly pursue the ambiguous in their attempt to make trouble and to pin down a specific meaning of their own: only God knows the true meaning.
 
Those firmly grounded in knowledge say, 'We believe in it: it is all from our Lord' -- only those with real perception will take heed.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Definition of "True Religion" and Islam
 
It then again recounts the Last Day of Judgment, the folly of prosperity on Earth in possessions/spouses/children if you're sent to the Fire, how much greater the Garden is compared to the pleasures of this world, how God knows the difference between true devotion and false devotion, and a comparison to the Pharaoh who opposed Moses.
 
Then, in Ayah 19:
 
True Religion, in God's eyes, is "islam" [Arabic for: "devotion to Him alone"].
 
As I said in the introduction, the Qur'an tends to repeat many points, especially about God and the Last Day, and even stories to events also found in the Bible. I'll be skimming over them now at this point, with the occasional reference, unless there's a new twist or perspective on it. Such as this on the Last Day, which is written a little differently this time:
 
On the Day when every soul finds all the good it has done present before it, it will wish all the bad it has done to be far, far away. God warns you to beware of Him, but God is compassionate towards His servants. Say, 'If you love God, and God will forgive you and forgive your sins; God is most forgiving, most merciful.'
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Family of Imran... the special birth of Mary, Zachariah, the coming of John the Baptist's birth, and the coming of the Messiah
 
Ayah 33:
 
God chose Adam, Noah, Abraham's family, and the family of 'Imran, over all other people, in one line of descent -- God hears and knows all.
 
Then there is the story of a special birth... the birth of Mary... and the prayers of Imran's Wife (mother of Mary) to protect Mary from the evil one. She was then placed in the care of a man named Zachariah.
 
After Zachariah became convinced of Mary's special bond with God, he prayed, and was told he would have a son who would confirm a Word from God and be a noble prophet: John the Baptist. Zachariah is at first in disbelief, because he is old and his wife is barren.
 
Then we get more about Mary being unique, and the announcement of Jesus' birth:
 
The angels said to Mary: 'Mary, God has chosen you and made you pure: He has truly chosen you above all women.
[...]
The angels said, 'Mary, God gives you news of a Word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honor in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God.
[...]
She said, 'My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me?' The angel said, 'This is how God creates what He will: when He has ordained something, He only says, "Be", and it is. He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel. He will send him as a messenger to the Children of Israel:
'I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I will make the shape of a bird for you out of clay, then breathe into it and, with God's permission, it will become a real bird; I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life with God's permission; I will tell you what you may eat and what you may store up in your houses. There truly is a sign for you in this, if you are believers. I have come to confirm the truth of the Torah which preceded me, and to make some things lawful to you which used to be forbidden. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. Be mindful of God, obey me. God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him -- that is a straight path."'
 
It then goes on to introduce the disciples of Jesus, to help him in his cause.
 
Here, it is confirmed in Islam that Jesus was the son of Mary alone, like it is in the Bible. The Qur'an also explicitly called Jesus the Messiah, and shows that he has powers (with the permission of God) that only God has ever had: the creation of life, the resurrection of the dead, and even the authority to change what used to be forbidden.
 
The Qur'an goes out of its way to confirm that Jesus, and Mary, are very, very special and closer to God than all other humans. Islam does not even treat Mohammed in the way that it treats Jesus.
 
It then continues, in Ayah 55:
 
God said, "Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me: I will purify you of the disbelievers. To the Day of Resurrection I will make those who followed you superior to those who disbelieved. Then you will all return to Me and I will judge between you regarding your differences.
 
Again affirming the truth in Jesus and his followers, while acknowledging there are differences.
 
Then there's this direct quote, Ayah 58 and onwards:
 
We relate to you [Mohammed] this revelation, a decisive statement. In God's eyes Jesus is just like Adam: He created him from dust, and said to him, 'Be', and he was. This is the truth from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.
 
If anyone disputes this with you, now that you have been given this knowledge, say, "come, let us gather our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, and let us pray earnestly and invoke God's rejection on those of us who are lying.
 
This is the truth of the matter: there is no god but God; God is the Exalted, the Decider.
 
If they turn away, [know that] God is well aware of anyone who causes corruption. Say, 'People of the Book, let us arrive at a statement that is common to us all: we worship God alone, we ascribe no partner to Him, and none of us takes others beside God as lords.'
 
I think this is very interesting, a plea from God and Mohammed that basically says: Christians and Muslims, you both worship God, agree on that and be at peace. It then brings up the example of Abraham, and how Christians wondered if he was saved or not, and the Qur'an answers that he was faithful to God in his own time even if he was neither Jew nor Christian, so let it be. To stop worrying about technicalities: good people have nothing to fear.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Again confirming previous Scriptures and Prophets, people condemn themselves, the importance of Reason and Forgiveness, Struggle, Deception, Women and Refugees
 
In Ayah 79:
 
No person to whom God had given the Scripture, wisdom, and prophethood would ever say to people, "Be my servants, not God's.'
 
Ayah 81:
 
God took a pledge from the prophets, saying, 'If, after I have bestowed Scripture and wisdom upon you, a messenger comes confirming what you have been given, you must believe in him and support him.
[...]
Say [Mohammed], 'We [Muslims] believe in God and in what has been sent down before us and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes. We believe in what has been given to Moses, and the Prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of them. It is to Him we devote ourselves.'
 
Later, in Ayah 116-117, it's explained that those who become "companions in the Fire" are not wronged by God... they wronged themselves to be there:
It was not God who wronged them; they wronged themselves.
 
And in Ayah 118, there's this interesting passage:
We made Our revelations clear for you; will you not use your reason?
 
The importance of Forgiving Others in Ayah 133:
Hurry towards your Lord's forgiveness and a Garden as wide as the heavens and earth prepared for the righteous, who give, both in prosperity and adversity, who restrain their anger and pardon people -- God loves those who do good.
 
It then reminds people to be steadfast, in bad times as well as good times, to stand firm in righteousness even when it's not easy. That struggle proves true faith. With many allusions to a battle that had recently happened.
 
Then there's a quick word on how some who received the Scripture altered or hid it, those who deceive the truth, in Ayah 187:
God took a pledge from those who were given the Scripture -- 'Make it known to people, do not conceal it' -- but they tossed the pledge over their shoulders, they bartered it for a small price: what a bad bargain they made! Do not think [Prophet] that those who exult in what they have done and seek praise for things they have not done will escape the torment; agonizing torment awaits them'
 
An affirmation of male/female equality in the eyes of God in Ayah 195, and also of Immigrants and Refugees:
Their Lord answered them: 'I will not allow the deeds of any one of you to be lost, whether you are male or female, each is like the other [you come from each other, you are equal]. I will certainly wipe out the bad deeds of those who emigrated and were driven out of their homes, who suffered harm for My cause, who fought and were killed. I will certainly admit them to the Gardens graced with flowing streams, as a reward from God: the best reward is with God.'
 
 
 
 
 
And that concludes Sura 3: the Children of Imran!
 
Next will be Sura 4: Women, which takes it name from the many references to women throughout the sura, as well as covering social justice, fairness I'm marriage and inheritance, and defending the weak and helpless in times of war.
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2016, 09:57:34 AM »

correct. So when a Muslim says there is no God but Allah, they are really saying there is no god but God. Allah and Jehovah are both God, in a sense the same God. They are only different gods because people create God in their own image. So every Muslim and every Christian has a different "image" of God in their mind. It is the figurative chicken and egg, did "god" create humans in "his" image or have humans created "god" in their own limited image of what god would be if god existed? There's the conundrum.

The same God?!  Really?!  Who are you to equate them as worshipping the same God?

Have you not heard that the New Testament claims that Jesus is God and that as far as it is concerned, and even as far as Jesus' own words, rejection of Jesus' identity and resurrection is tantamount to rejecting God?  Therefore, Christians do NOT worship the same God as Muslims, since Christians worship Jesus as God and Muslims reject Jesus as God.

If we don't worship the same God as you then by comparison since Judaism, and the Baha'i faith rejects the Jesus is divine idea they don't worship the same God either....nice try though
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2016, 03:49:49 AM »

Christians, Muslims, and Jews all worship Yahweh. Fixed.
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« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2017, 09:19:56 PM »

Well, I never got to finish Sura 4 (though I began it, I got stuck at one part). But I think what we have so far is a treasure trove of information on what Islam actually is, what the Qur'an is actually like, and could prove very useful in the Trump years ahead. Raising this thread so others can read and discuss it who haven't so far.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2017, 09:27:17 PM »

This is a really fascinating thread. I haven't had time to read everything right now, but I want to get back to it soon.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2017, 09:59:24 PM »

It's a shame the Quran is organized in such a reader-hostile manner that frontloads all the difficult material. Once you get past about Sura 12 it's clean sailing, and the last 30 or so are 1-2 pages long.
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« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2017, 01:54:25 PM »

This is a really fascinating thread. I haven't had time to read everything right now, but I want to get back to it soon.
Looking forward to your thoughts!
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Blue3
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2017, 08:17:43 AM »

Upping this, since someone was interested in doing a read-through.
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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2017, 09:16:54 AM »

I learned from an exhibition on the Quran at the Smithsonian that Islam has no concept of Original Sin like Christianity does -I'd like for us to go into that in some detail.  That to me is its most fascinating aspect.  
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Torie
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« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2017, 07:03:26 AM »

When do we get to dogs as pets?  That is a local issue where I live because we have a substantial Bangladeshi community. One little Bangledeshi boy reached out a petted our dog Roby, and then recoiled, knowing that he had sinned.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2017, 11:38:50 AM »

When do we get to dogs as pets?  That is a local issue where I live because we have a substantial Bangladeshi community. One little Bangledeshi boy reached out a petted our dog Roby, and then recoiled, knowing that he had sinned.

All of the anti-dog condemnations in Islam are based on Hadith (traditions about the life of the Prophet), not the Quran itself. In the Quran itself, Muhammad passingly mentions hunting dogs and guard dogs in a neutral way, but there's nothing one way or the other about dogs as pets.
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« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2019, 05:19:48 PM »

Would anyone like me to continue this? What are your thoughts on my posts in this thread so far?
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