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| | |-+  Understanding Islam, and reading the Qur'an chapter-by-chapter
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Author Topic: Understanding Islam, and reading the Qur'an chapter-by-chapter  (Read 6372 times)
Lechasseur
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« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2019, 07:20:49 pm »

I wonder how many people know how to translate the word "Allah"?
I think that a lot of people don't know about this. Maybe not people here, but people in general. It is important to know this possibly before knowing anything else about Islam.

Allah I believe is a contraction of Al-Ilah, "the God", in other words it's a contraction of the word "God"
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2019, 07:27:50 pm »

The Cow is slow going, to be sure. Muhammad by this point in his career was deeply incensed that the Jews of Medina, a community whom he thought would be a natural audience for his message, both scorned him and outright allied with the pagan Meccans against his Muslim community. This is about the time Islam is trying to forge an identity that isn't Arab-style Judaic monotheism.

I actually believe that for a long time (about a century), it was made very, very difficult for non-Arabs to convert to Islam, and that was one of the main reasons the Umayyad Caliphate fell (basically the Umayyads treated the Dhimmi very badly and wouldn't let them convert, so non-Arabs and non-Muslims backed the Abbassids against the Umayyads due to the fact that the Abbassids promised to be tolerant of non-muslims and allow non-Arabs to convert to Islam easily).
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2019, 07:29:34 pm »

Christians, Muslims, and Jews all worship Yahweh. Fixed.

Agreed
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2019, 07:31:45 pm »

When do we get to dogs as pets?  That is a local issue where I live because we have a substantial Bangladeshi community. One little Bangledeshi boy reached out a petted our dog Roby, and then recoiled, knowing that he had sinned.

All of the anti-dog condemnations in Islam are based on Hadith (traditions about the life of the Prophet), not the Quran itself. In the Quran itself, Muhammad passingly mentions hunting dogs and guard dogs in a neutral way, but there's nothing one way or the other about dogs as pets.

I doubt there really was the concept of "pets" in 7th century Arabia, so it doesn't surprise me that the concept isn't mentioned.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2019, 07:32:15 pm »

Would anyone like me to continue this? What are your thoughts on my posts in this thread so far?

It's quite interesting
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2019, 07:34:32 pm »

You are going to see a lot more about Jesus as you go forward. Muhammad was evidently shocked and horrified by the idea that God could have a flesh-and-blood son and viewed that as idolatrous, but was also very impressed with Jesus as a prophet. Muhammad also will maintain that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, but rather, a body double of some sort was crucified in his place.

I've heard (to be verified, I'll look for the source) that some early Christians apparently believed that and believed that Simon the Cyrene was crucified in his place, so that may be where the idea in Islam was inspired from.
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« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2019, 07:38:08 pm »

I'm still very much interested in this, please continue.

I'm not really qualified to comment, but this is fascinating.
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anvi
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« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2019, 10:13:11 am »

You are going to see a lot more about Jesus as you go forward. Muhammad was evidently shocked and horrified by the idea that God could have a flesh-and-blood son and viewed that as idolatrous, but was also very impressed with Jesus as a prophet. Muhammad also will maintain that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, but rather, a body double of some sort was crucified in his place.

I've heard (to be verified, I'll look for the source) that some early Christians apparently believed that and believed that Simon the Cyrene was crucified in his place, so that may be where the idea in Islam was inspired from.

Yes, this is correct.  In book 1, chapter 19 of the five-volume work Against the Heresies, the second-century Christian apologist Irrenaeus of Lyon cites and criticises the views of some early Docetists that, when he took Jesus' cross, Simon of Cyrene was transfigured by Jesus to look like him, and while Simon died on the cross, Jesus looked on and laughed at how he had tricked everyone.  Irenaeus, however, attributed this view to an Egyptian Gnostic, Basillides, while later apologists such as Clement rejected that attribution.  The second-century Gonstic Apocalypse of Peter also claims that a substitute took Jesus' place on the cross, but does not name the substitute.  So, whether it was Simon of Cyrene or someone else, the view that Jesus' place on the cross was taken by someone else seems to have been fairly widespread among Gonstics and early Docetists.  I think Muslim Qur'an scholars tend to the view that Jesus selected one of his young disciples to take his place on the cross, and not a bystander or stranger. 

In any case, yes, please continue with this helpful and fascinating discussion.
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« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2019, 06:45:23 pm »

Is it true Islam has no concept of Original Sin?
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2019, 01:33:20 am »

Is it true Islam has no concept of Original Sin?

Yes we do not believe in original sin, we believe every person is born pure and from there your actions in life plus your faith determine your fate.
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Frodo
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« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2019, 03:01:04 am »

Is it true Islam has no concept of Original Sin?

Yes we do not believe in original sin, we believe every person is born pure and from there your actions in life plus your faith determine your fate.

Are there any Quranic texts that flesh it (what you just said) out, so to speak? 
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Blue3
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« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2019, 02:34:27 pm »

Jews donít believe in original sin either.
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2019, 02:52:08 pm »

Is it true Islam has no concept of Original Sin?

Yes we do not believe in original sin, we believe every person is born pure and from there your actions in life plus your faith determine your fate.

Are there any Quranic texts that flesh it (what you just said) out, so to speak?  


two examples:

in Surah An-Najm verses 38-41
Quote
That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (of good and bad). And that his deeds will be seen, Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best [fair] recompense.


and in Surah Al-Isra verse 15
Quote
ďWho receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit: who goes astray does so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another
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« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2019, 11:31:21 pm »

Not all interpretations of original sin hold that we all bear guilt for the original sin in Eden but that the original sin predisposed mankind to a sinful nature that can only be overcome by God's grace and assistance. Does Islam have anything about a predisposition to either evil or good in mankind?
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2019, 02:57:46 pm »

Not all interpretations of original sin hold that we all bear guilt for the original sin in Eden but that the original sin predisposed mankind to a sinful nature that can only be overcome by God's grace and assistance. Does Islam have anything about a predisposition to either evil or good in mankind?

That has always been how I interpreted Original Sin
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Frodo
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2019, 06:51:04 pm »

Jews donít believe in original sin either.

Really?  Doesn't the Tanakh also contain the Garden of Eden story? Christianity didn't just pick up the notion of Original Sin out of the ether. 
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Blue3
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« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2019, 07:52:34 pm »

Jews donít believe in original sin either.

Really?  Doesn't the Tanakh also contain the Garden of Eden story? Christianity didn't just pick up the notion of Original Sin out of the ether. 
Jews don't believe the Garden of Eden story created any kind of "original sin." This isn't news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#In_Judaism
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Badger
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« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2019, 07:08:26 am »

Can you expand on the fact that Jesus is viewed by Muslims as the Messiah? That's beyond fascinating to the point of being downright jaw-dropping. Does this mean Muslims believe in a second coming or the appearance of Jesus will create the end times, Rapture, whatever one wants to call it?
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Blue3
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« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2019, 12:08:54 am »

Can you expand on the fact that Jesus is viewed by Muslims as the Messiah? That's beyond fascinating to the point of being downright jaw-dropping. Does this mean Muslims believe in a second coming or the appearance of Jesus will create the end times, Rapture, whatever one wants to call it?
In short, yes. They believe he comes again to fight the Antichrist.
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2019, 08:24:11 pm »

Can you expand on the fact that Jesus is viewed by Muslims as the Messiah? That's beyond fascinating to the point of being downright jaw-dropping. Does this mean Muslims believe in a second coming or the appearance of Jesus will create the end times, Rapture, whatever one wants to call it?

We believe when the end times occur, Jesus will come back and fight against the Anti-christ with the Mahdi (he's not a bad guy here) and will lead the believers in prayer.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2019, 05:30:51 am »

Can you expand on the fact that Jesus is viewed by Muslims as the Messiah? That's beyond fascinating to the point of being downright jaw-dropping. Does this mean Muslims believe in a second coming or the appearance of Jesus will create the end times, Rapture, whatever one wants to call it?

We believe when the end times occur, Jesus will come back and fight against the Anti-christ with the Mahdi (he's not a bad guy here) and will lead the believers in prayer.

Yeah. It's funny, these days Judaism and Christianity tend to be the two religions that seem to be grouped together (Judeo-Christian heritage and stuff), but with what I know, in a pure religious belief sense, Christianity strikes me as being a lot closer to Islam than to Judiasm (obviously I'm not saying either one is better or worse than the other). Islam almost strikes me as a form of Unitarian Christianity (with some differences of course) mixed with cultural elements and rules from Arabia (I might have put it badly but I think you get what I mean). I know for example on the Jesus question (Isa in Islam, Yasu in Arabic Christianity) Muslims believe that Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary (Miryam I believe it is in Arabic).

And can you clarify on the point of the events leading to the end times in Islam? My understanding is the Mahdi (the 12th Imam who's supposed to come back in Shia Islam, not sure who it's supposed to be in Sunni Islam) is supposed to be a righteous man (not sure what his exact role is supposed to be though) who's supposed to start the war against the Antichrist (al Masih ad Dajjal I believe) and prepare the way for Jesus to come back. Then Jesus is supposed to reappear near Damascus and then kill the Antichrist at Megiddo (Armageddon), reunite Islam, Christianity and Judaism into one religion (din I believe) and nation (umma); then he's supposed to rule for 40 years and then die and be buried in Mecca next to Muhammad. Is that correct? And is there any concept of the Day of Judgement in Islam as there is in Christianity?

And I was also reading that while mainstream Muslims don't believe in the Crucifixion my understanding is they believe he never died and just rose to Heaven at one point), apparently Sufi and Ismaili sects have an interpretation of Jesus' death that's similar (although different to that  of Christianity) believe that Jesus' material body died on the cross but his spirit never died. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding something?

And it's also interesting to see that Islam recognizes the Injil (the Gospel), and they believe that was Isa's Revelation from God to the World.
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