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December 12, 2019, 03:12:53 am
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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Gustaf, Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  The Executive Branch (President, Vice President, etc.)
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Author Topic: The Executive Branch (President, Vice President, etc.)  (Read 14106 times)
Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« on: January 18, 2016, 02:12:06 pm »
« edited: February 07, 2016, 12:55:20 pm by Senator Truman »


Hear ye! Hear ye! Having seen the adoption of the Articles addressing the Regions and the federal Congress, this Convention will now turn its attention to the Executive branch of the national government. As the old thread was basically four pages of Griffin and Windjammer arguing about who better understands the U.S. Constitution, I have decided to move debate here; this will make it easier to keep track of relevant proposals and information and will allow me to edit the title of this thread to announce votes and other procedural matters.

I would remind the delegates that, by a previous principle vote, this Convention has determined to preserve the position of Vice President. This, to the best of my knowledge, is the only significant decision made in the previous thread.

I now open the floor for debate.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 05:32:06 pm »

I think that we should allow certain members of the executive branch to sit in Congress or in the Regional Legislatures. Probably the only roles that wouldn't be allowed to would be the President, Vice President and the Game Moderator.

I think this will make these roles easier to fill and reduce the amount of positions within the game.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 05:50:56 pm »

I think that we should allow certain members of the executive branch to sit in Congress or in the Regional Legislatures. Probably the only roles that wouldn't be allowed to would be the President, Vice President and the Game Moderator.

I think this will make these roles easier to fill and reduce the amount of positions within the game.
Not a bad idea, though I think this would be best addressed when we discuss simultaneous officeholding later in the Convention.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 05:52:25 pm »

I would support having the Vice President elected separately from the President and being permitted to hold a cabinet position, if he would like to, and if nominated by the President.

This still provides for an immediate successor to the President should he resign or be impeached, as well as providing some meaningful responsibility while still serving as Vice President.

The Vice President would still, of course, continue to cast any tie breaking votes in the Senate.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 05:54:28 pm »

I would support having the Vice President elected separately from the President and being permitted to hold a cabinet position, if he would like to, and if nominated by the President.
I will call a principle vote on the proposal in bold in 24 hours time if there are no objections.
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Leinad
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2016, 09:44:46 pm »

I would support having the Vice President elected separately from the President and being permitted to hold a cabinet position, if he would like to, and if nominated by the President.
I will call a principle vote on the proposal in bold in 24 hours time if there are no objections.

That's a good idea. I'm undecided on the matter, myself, hopefully we can get some good debate going and both sides can make their case.

I think it would help make the position more relevant, but I'm not sure by how much, and it sounds like something that could have unintended consequences.
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Leinad
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 09:53:11 pm »

As the old thread was basically four pages of Griffin and Windjammer arguing about who better understands the U.S. Constitution

That old thread had slipped my mind, and I read through it thinking your description was hyperbole.

It actually isn't.

Anyway, let me bring back to life an idea Windjammer had:

For the VP,

Make him a senator. People would vote for a P/VP ticket, and the VP would basically be a senator being the first on the line of succession (maybe with some "additional stuff"). For example, a senate being represented by 2 senators for each region (for example, 1 elected at large, the other by the legislature), the VP being the  7th senator.

Of course, he couldn't break the tie anymore.

I guess there might be problems with that now that we already had votes on the legislative branch, but it's still food for thought at the very least.
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Justice Blair
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 08:49:56 am »

The only issue of a Senator being VP, who's also elected is that he'd have a vote on impeachment
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 11:55:28 am »

I would remind everyone that the recently passed Congressional Article tasks the vice president with coordinating the two Houses of Congress; I don't think that's compatible with making him a member of one of those houses.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 12:11:57 pm »

I would remind everyone that the recently passed Congressional Article tasks the vice president with coordinating the two Houses of Congress; I don't think that's compatible with making him a member of one of those houses.

Agreed.

That is why I say the Vice President  could hold a cabinet post if he wants and providing the President wants to nominate him for cabinet.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 08:14:30 pm »

Seeing no objection, I herby call a principle vote on the question of vice presidential elections. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

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President Griffin
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 08:17:54 pm »

Thank you for acknowledging that the Vice President is in the executive branch! I will be engaging with this thread quite a bit obviously in the coming days.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 08:19:53 pm »

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I oppose this proposal for two reasons: first, the duties vested in the vice presidency are not great enough to merit a separate election; second, in the event that the president should be forced to vacate his office, it is best for his successor to come from within his Administration (so as to ensure that the mandate issued by the people in the last presidential election is upheld). By electing the vice president together with the president, we ensure that the vice president is also a recipient of that mandate, and therefore more likely to carry on the policies begun by his predecessor than if he were elected separately.
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2016, 08:29:14 pm »

No
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President Griffin
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 08:51:28 pm »

Since we apparently are not going to abolish the Vice Presidency or entertain the notion of the whole Prime Minister/VP and President concept I came up with (where the President can break ties in one chamber and the Prime Minister - or possibly VP - can break ties in another), then I don't see much of a purpose in separating these.

As-is and at least in one chamber, the President's chosen running mate (and therefore, an extension of the administration) will have the ability to break a vote in the administration's favor. I'm sure that otherwise, the VP role will continue to have a minimal day-to-day role in whatever the final text may be (based on these actions thus far), so I'll say:

Nay
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2016, 09:03:43 pm »

Nay
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2016, 09:04:16 pm »

Nay
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VPH
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2016, 09:44:45 pm »

aye
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2016, 12:11:21 am »

Aye

I am advocating for this convention to take a bold step forward, to look beyond the mundane and the ordinary, to think outside the box, to venture into new and courageous paths, and what do we get, nothing more than timid and feeble foot shuffling.

But VPH, thank you for showing courage. 
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2016, 12:21:12 am »

PRINCIPLE VOTE
on Electing the Vice President

Question: Should the vice president be elected separately from the president?
[ X ] AYE
[   ] NAY
[   ] Abstain


I can see arguments in both directions here, but I think with the task of coordinating the houses, having it as a seperate election might be slightly more appropriate than the present status quo because they would be judged on their own performance. However, I can appreciate the Presidential successor being of liked mind concern as well.
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Justice Blair
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2016, 07:43:44 am »

Nay,

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bore
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2016, 09:41:11 am »

Nay
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2016, 10:23:30 am »

Nay
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2016, 10:31:54 am »

Nay
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NeverAgain
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2016, 05:59:44 pm »
« Edited: January 20, 2016, 09:00:51 pm by Speaker NeverAgain »

Nay. I agree with Senator Truman's dissent, but I also think that the President and the VP must be able to work together and having a possible partisanship issue in the executive office would not bode well for Atlasia.
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