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  The Executive Branch (President, Vice President, etc.)
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Author Topic: The Executive Branch (President, Vice President, etc.)  (Read 14060 times)
Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2016, 06:19:07 pm »

     Nay
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Prince of Salem
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2016, 09:53:49 pm »

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Senator Cris
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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2016, 03:55:48 pm »

Nay
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MadmanMotley
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2016, 04:25:37 pm »

Nay
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2016, 09:39:00 pm »

By a vote of 3 Ayes, 13 Nays, one Abstention, and with six delegates not voting, this question has FAILED.
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President Griffin
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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2016, 02:25:27 pm »

I think we need to clarify just what exactly the Vice President's role will be in the tie-breaking situation. Before we know this, we can't really proceed with determining how ties will be broken in the other chamber (although technically, we could allow the VP to break the tie in both chambers). The VP could also have no tie-breaking ability, however, it wouldn't make much sense to have kept this position and not give it tie-breaking power somewhere (not to mention that we'd need to devise potentially two new ways to break ties: either one person in each chamber, or one for both chambers).

Possible options:

  • The VP breaks the tie in the Senate
  • The VP breaks the tie in the House
  • The VP breaks the tie in both chambers
  • The VP breaks the tie in neither chamber
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NeverAgain
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2016, 03:15:20 pm »

I think we need to clarify just what exactly the Vice President's role will be in the tie-breaking situation. Before we know this, we can't really proceed with determining how ties will be broken in the other chamber (although technically, we could allow the VP to break the tie in both chambers). The VP could also have no tie-breaking ability, however, it wouldn't make much sense to have kept this position and not give it tie-breaking power somewhere (not to mention that we'd need to devise potentially two new ways to break ties: either one person in each chamber, or one for both chambers).

Possible options:

  • The VP breaks the tie in the Senate
  • The VP breaks the tie in the House
  • The VP breaks the tie in both chambers
  • The VP breaks the tie in neither chamber
I think the VP should be able to break ties, in both chambers, or at least the Senate. This is really one of the only main powers the VP has to do and should be upheld.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2016, 05:25:05 pm »

In fact, the Convention has already addressed this matter:

ARTICLE [TBD]
Section 1 (The Legislature)
i. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia, which shall consist of a Senate and a House of Representatives.
ii. The Vice President shall be the President of the Congress, but shall have no vote in the House of Representatives, nor in the Senate save when they be equally divided.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2016, 05:32:19 pm »

As that's already been settled, is there any other responsibilities that could be designated to the VP? I feel that the VP should have more power than just breaking ties in Congress, but I'm not really sure what powers could be given to the VP.
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President Griffin
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« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2016, 05:46:02 pm »

Then I would say that the next item should be the discussion as to whether or not the Vice President can hold an additional cabinet position (or elected position, for that matter), unless it's believed superior to discuss this as part of broader package on simultaneous officeholding later. I can see merits in explicitly outlining this in the executive branch of the document, as well as merely covering it as part of cabinet positions and dual officeholding.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2016, 08:08:22 pm »

Then I would say that the next item should be the discussion as to whether or not the Vice President can hold an additional cabinet position (or elected position, for that matter), unless it's believed superior to discuss this as part of broader package on simultaneous officeholding later. I can see merits in explicitly outlining this in the executive branch of the document, as well as merely covering it as part of cabinet positions and dual officeholding.
I think it would be best to address this when we address the issue of simultaneous officeholding: that way, the rules are all in one place rather than scattered throughout the document.

As that's already been settled, is there any other responsibilities that could be designated to the VP? I feel that the VP should have more power than just breaking ties in Congress, but I'm not really sure what powers could be given to the VP.
The Congressional Article gives the VP the additional duty of serving as "President of the Congress" (ie: coordinating the Senate and the HoR). Assuming we allow the VP to serve as part of the cabinet, this would make the office significantly more consequential than it is currently.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2016, 08:20:27 pm »

The Vice President is already allowed to be part of the Cabinet and we've had many instances of that happening in the past, including Vice Presidents serving as Attorney General and Secretary of External Affairs. That hasn't made the office "significantly more consequential".
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2016, 02:40:14 am »

However, the merits of it aside from that do stand to give it some justification for its continuing. In real life, the VP is often tasked with certain areas of focus or responsibility. Such is not possible in the same way as it occurs in real life, but this arrangement is a feasible substitute.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2016, 11:17:53 am »

Are we in agreement that the presidential term should last four months (as it does now)? If so, we will begin debate on the powers to be held by the executive.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2016, 11:52:23 am »

Are we in agreement that the presidential term should last four months (as it does now)? If so, we will begin debate on the powers to be held by the executive.
I agree with that, unless anyone wants to talk about changing the term limit. You could potentially have a "cooling off period" where someone, who's had two terms, can run for President again a year after they were last President (for example).
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Justice Blair
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2016, 01:06:25 pm »

I'd rather have term limits of two terms, or simply have no limit. I fear with a cooling off period we'd see a situation like Russia where someone becomes President for 2 terms, resigns to the Senate and then becomes President again
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President Griffin
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2016, 04:09:54 pm »

Personally, I've never liked the idea of term limits for any office. If I recall correctly, term limits were not around in the original iteration of Atlasia (could totally be wrong about this). Nobody has ever served more than two elected terms as President. Let me be the first to tell you: there's a reason for that! Hell, bore was the first two-term Laborite (who was the 4th elected Laborite to the office); all of the others couldn't handle the chronic abuse - and I don't blame them, based on what I knew they were experiencing.

If someone - god forbid - can handle the office for more than two terms and the public at-large is willing to give them that opportunity, then I personally think that they deserve it. I just don't think anyone would ever be willing to do so. As it stands currently, people who served two consecutive terms can run again just a few months later if they so desire - we don't see that happening, which kind of proves my point. The only reason we have term limits is because a lot of people have a desire to make the game look like the RL US way too much.

I also think that 4-month terms are perfectly fine. If someone has to run for President every 2 months, then you might as well just slap a one-term limit on that - can you imagine having to campaign for this office every 2 months? I doubt anyone would do it. You might also lower turnout through such a concept - presidential elections would then become a lot "cheaper". I can't fathom any legitimate argument that seeks to make the term longer than 4 months.

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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2016, 04:24:46 pm »

I agree with Griffin - especially considering how hard it has been to find keep the government fully staffed of late, I don't see the rationale of barring people from running for office if they have the desire and support to do so. Of the last six presidents (not counting Tyrion), barely 50% have chosen to seek reelection, so I doubt that the prospect of an "eternal president" is much of a threat.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2016, 02:30:51 pm »

     Going off of what President Griffin said, it's a stressful job here much as it is in real life. Look at Obama or Bush or any other President towards the end of an eight-year tenure and they look pretty run down. It took the United States 150 years to see a President go past two terms, and even without the 22nd Amendment I doubt we would ever see another one.

     Even if we consider the possibility of it happening in Atlasia a problem, the odds of anyone putting themselves through that punishment willingly are rather low.
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President Griffin
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« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2016, 06:20:00 pm »

Should we have a mere principle vote on this, or what? Compared to the current Constitution, we'd be voting to either omit a restriction in the new document versus keeping it, so that seems that a simple enough of a vote. Perhaps we'll need 2 votes alongside each other - one for the term length and one for the number of terms - to get it all done at once. Then we can craft the actual text for one or both items.

I offer the following for consideration as a principle vote:

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Clyde1998
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« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2016, 06:27:21 pm »

I'm proposing a slight amendment to Griffin's principle vote idea - purely adding an option to increase the number of terms, while still keeping a term limit.

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President Griffin
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« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2016, 06:28:22 pm »

I'll withdraw my original amendment and allow Clyde's to stand as its replacement.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2016, 07:07:16 pm »

Very well, we will now begin a principle vote on the length of presidential terms and the question of term limits. Delegates should rank the following options in order of preference. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

NOTE on Question 2: As Griffin/Clyde's proposal did not state whether we were voting on a lifetime term limit (as exists in the real life US) or a limit on consecutive terms only (as exists in Atlasia today), I have broken Question 2 into two parts. In Question 2a, you are given three choices: the first option would place a lifetime term limit on the presidency (i.e. two terms and then you're done forever); the second option would place a limit on consecutive terms (i.e. after you've served two terms, you have to wait one term before you can run again); the third option would eliminate term limits entirely. In Question 2b, you are being asked to pick the maximum number of terms a person should be able to serve as president in the event that a term limit is set. You should vote on Question 2b EVEN IF you voted "No" on Question 2a. Obviously, if a majority votes "No" on 2a, the results of 2b will be discarded.

I apologize if this was already obvious, but considering the confusion that has surrounded past principle votes, I wanted to be extra careful.

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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2016, 07:09:04 pm »

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President Griffin
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« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2016, 07:10:31 pm »

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