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  45% of Israeli Jews don't believe Arabs should have equal rights
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Author Topic: 45% of Israeli Jews don't believe Arabs should have equal rights  (Read 2179 times)
#TheShadowyAbyss
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« on: January 21, 2016, 08:36:46 am »
« edited: January 21, 2016, 08:39:45 am by #TheShadowyAbyss »


You'll have to translate this if you don't speak Hebrew the question is:

 "תמיכה בשוויוך זכויו מלא לערבימ אזרחי המדינה?" Do you support equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel?

לא תומכים - 45% "No support, do not support"

43% - תומכים "support, do support"

6% - תלוי "depends"

6% - לא יודע "not sure"



http://glz.co.il/1064-75297-HE/Galatz.aspx
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Angel of Death
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 08:44:32 am »

Don't worry, dead0man will tell you that anti-Zionists are the real racists.
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 08:46:43 am »

Don't worry, dead0man will tell you that anti-Zionists are the real racists.

And I'm sure he will
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DavidB.
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 09:02:06 am »

Gee, I wonder what percentage of Arabs support equal rights for Jews in a potential "Palestinian" state... Smiley
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Corbyn is a Strasserist
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 09:38:20 am »

Unfortunate, but you couldn't find a worse time to ask this question, right after two of the most brutal and inexcusable stabbings in the current terror waves.

I wonder what results questions like this would have resulted in on September 15th, 2001 in NY.
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Cory
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 10:34:26 am »

Gee, I wonder what percentage of Arabs support equal rights for Jews in a potential "Palestinian" state... Smiley
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Secret Cavern Survivor
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 08:44:24 pm »

Gee, I wonder what percentage of Arabs support equal rights for Jews in a potential "Palestinian" state... Smiley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
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DavidB.
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2016, 09:35:59 pm »
« Edited: January 21, 2016, 09:40:14 pm by DavidB. »

No. Talking about the Western Sahara or Northern Cyprus or Tibet is classic whataboutism (even if it might have some merit, but I like to be intellectually honest and talk about this conflict instead), but this is part of the same conflict. Many people think Israel is somehow bad because 45% of Jews say they're opposed to equality (even if this is not official government policy and likely won't be, mind you), whereas these same people accept the fact that in the 2SS they themselves support, Palestinian Arabs would likely never allow any Jews to live in that state, and if they would, most Palestinian Arabs would oppose equality -- and we all know this, for 70% to 80% of Palestinian Arabs are currently even okay with attacking Jews (or "settlers", which excuses it for many Westerners, since Arabs are entitled to ethnically homogeneous states with questionable democratic credentials whereas Jews have an obligation to be both diverse and democratic).

Let's be crystal clear. I personally find it incredibly sad that many Israelis feel this way, and I do not think the solution lies in inequality. However, many people are mad about this yet continue to condone attitudes on the other side of the conflict that are far more problematic, far more widespread, and far more obstructive to peace. Their outrage is faux outrage. I don't buy that.
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The love that set me free
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2016, 01:38:40 am »

Erm the term originally comes from Northern Ireland. There it's always two sides of the same conflict.

"Wow did you hear about that IRA/Loyalist attack yesterday? How horrible!"

"Uh, what about *Loyalist/IRA attack*? You shouldn't be complaining about that when the Loyalists/IRA are doing terrible things too."

That's the line of argument being referred to and also a very blatant logical fallacy.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2016, 03:38:23 am »

No. Talking about the Western Sahara or Northern Cyprus or Tibet is classic whataboutism (even if it might have some merit, but I like to be intellectually honest and talk about this conflict instead), but this is part of the same conflict. Many people think Israel is somehow bad because 45% of Jews say they're opposed to equality (even if this is not official government policy and likely won't be, mind you), whereas these same people accept the fact that in the 2SS they themselves support, Palestinian Arabs would likely never allow any Jews to live in that state, and if they would, most Palestinian Arabs would oppose equality -- and we all know this, for 70% to 80% of Palestinian Arabs are currently even okay with attacking Jews (or "settlers", which excuses it for many Westerners, since Arabs are entitled to ethnically homogeneous states with questionable democratic credentials whereas Jews have an obligation to be both diverse and democratic).

Let's be crystal clear. I personally find it incredibly sad that many Israelis feel this way, and I do not think the solution lies in inequality. However, many people are mad about this yet continue to condone attitudes on the other side of the conflict that are far more problematic, far more widespread, and far more obstructive to peace. Their outrage is faux outrage. I don't buy that.

The issue with settlers, as you probably know it, isn't about "ethnically homogenous states", it's about the landgrab.

If Germany decided to build a town in Netherlands to house Germans despite the opposition of Dutch government, I suppose there would be an huge outcry. Especially in Netherlands.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2016, 06:36:33 am »
« Edited: January 22, 2016, 03:09:23 pm by True Federalist »

One of the reasons Israel puts forth for why the U.S. should support it is it's claim to be an egalitarian democracy. If that changes by making the Arab citizens of Israel officially second-class citizens then it will severely weaken that claim. Not that I think any Israeli government would be so stupid as to do that anytime soon. It would require either something closer to 95% support rather than merely 45% support or the U.S. having already disassociated itself from the Zionist state, and I would be totally shocked if either necessary condition happened during my lifetime.
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dead0man
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2016, 09:15:40 am »

Indeed.
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2016, 07:09:53 pm »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2016, 08:59:53 pm »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.

Since when is being the lesser evil good enough to pick one side over the other?
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Corbyn is a Strasserist
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2016, 09:01:58 pm »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.

Since when is being the lesser evil good enough to pick one side over the other?

Virtually always?
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2016, 09:36:47 pm »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.

Since when is being the lesser evil good enough to pick one side over the other?

Virtually always?

Or maybe, you know, just f**k both of them.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2016, 09:45:32 pm »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.

Since when is being the lesser evil good enough to pick one side over the other?

Virtually always?

That assumes you have to choose.  Non-choice is always a third option, and often the best one when the two choices are both bad. (Tho not always.)
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Secret Cavern Survivor
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2016, 09:49:01 pm »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.

My side? Huh
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Corbyn is a Strasserist
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2016, 10:25:51 pm »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.

Since when is being the lesser evil good enough to pick one side over the other?

Virtually always?

Or maybe, you know, just f**k both of them.

That would have worked out wonderfully in WW2. After all, the British Empire and Soviet Union were no prize themselves. So much brutal colonialism, to say nothing of Stalin's atrocities.

And yet...
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2016, 01:31:10 am »

That's obviously terrible, but it's nowhere near as bad as the leadership of the other side wanting to massacre all the Jews.


See, this is the classic retort when there's no way to argue your side is the lesser evil.

Since when is being the lesser evil good enough to pick one side over the other?

Virtually always?

Or maybe, you know, just f**k both of them.

That would have worked out wonderfully in WW2. After all, the British Empire and Soviet Union were no prize themselves. So much brutal colonialism, to say nothing of Stalin's atrocities.

And yet...
Pathetic, but part of a universal trend.
I wonder what the results would be if you asked Americans that question...
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Cory
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2016, 02:29:58 am »

That assumes you have to choose.  Non-choice is always a third option, and often the best one when the two choices are both bad. (Tho not always.)

No it isn't.

Nazi Germany vs the USSR in WWII is the textbook example of this.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2016, 01:51:14 pm »

That assumes you have to choose.  Non-choice is always a third option, and often the best one when the two choices are both bad. (Tho not always.)

No it isn't.

Nazi Germany vs the USSR in WWII is the textbook example of this.

Yes, it would have been a choice.  A bad choice in that particular example, yet still a choice.  It's an example that breaks the general rule.
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Angel of Death
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2016, 02:40:19 pm »

Oppress people to the point that they hate you and then use that to retroactively justify that oppression.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2016, 03:50:19 pm »

Oppress people to the point that they hate you and then use that to retroactively justify that oppression.
To be fair, just as the Zionists are not entirely blameful, the Palestinians aren't entirely blameless.

Anyone trying to solve this problem need to make worrying about blame a minor concern, and only to the extent that it might lead to a way to resolve it peacefully.
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