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| |-+  2016 U.S. Presidential Election (Moderators: AndrewTX, Likely Voter, TJ in Wisco)
| | |-+  OpEd: This is how fascism comes to America
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Author Topic: OpEd: This is how fascism comes to America  (Read 2269 times)
Dabeav
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« on: May 19, 2016, 11:27:18 am »
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-how-fascism-comes-to-america/2016/05/17/c4e32c58-1c47-11e6-8c7b-6931e66333e7_story.html
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"The sad thing is, our foreign policy WILL change eventually, as Rome's did, when all budgetary and monetary tricks to fund it are exhausted." - Ron Paul
pppolitics
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2016, 11:29:21 am »
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A lot of Republicans don't care about conservatism and this election proves it.
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2016, 03:16:19 pm »
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Vanilla Nationalism aligned with the conservative movement is not Fascism.  We used to have nationalist planks in both parties in this country, Harry Truman wasn't a Fascist, but you would call him one today.  Pursuing The nations interest BEFORE the interests of others isn't Fascism, it's common sense based on logic and reason.       
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ag
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 03:34:14 pm »
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Vanilla Nationalism aligned with the conservative movement is not Fascism.  We used to have nationalist planks in both parties in this country, Harry Truman wasn't a Fascist, but you would call him one today.  Pursuing The nations interest BEFORE the interests of others isn't Fascism, it's common sense based on logic and reason.        

Don't touch Harry Truman with your dirty hands. Harry Truman is the guy who gave us UN, NATO, Marshall Plan, etc., etc. He was the first US president who came to Mexico City and paid homage to the victims of American invasion in 1847 (just so that you know).



He was the guy who knew that America's interests involve cooperation with the rest of the world.

Trump does not have America's interests in mind: he does not know what these are and he does not care to learn. What he cares about is his own ego. He is willing to destroy America and the world to satisfy it.
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This is the year which people will talk about
This is the year which people will be silent about.
The old see the young die.
The foolish see the wise die.

The earth no longer produces, it devours.
The sky hurls down no rain, only iron.

Bertolt Brecht
AmericanNation
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 04:08:36 pm »
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My point is that nationalism is mainstream and always was represented by both parties to some extent, until dems started going nuts in 68 and Republican elites went ultra-internationalist on a few issues more recently. 

People seem to be dense about "cooperation".  It isn't a goal in itself.  You build partnerships when it makes sense and you don't when it doesn't.  You don't "cooperate" when it harms you severely.  Apparently that is a Fascist doctrine that Truman and FDR subscribed to and is now horrifying.                 
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ag
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 04:22:09 pm »
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My point is that nationalism is mainstream and always was represented by both parties to some extent, until dems started going nuts in 68 and Republican elites went ultra-internationalist on a few issues more recently.  

People seem to be dense about "cooperation".  It isn't a goal in itself.  You build partnerships when it makes sense and you don't when it doesn't.  You don't "cooperate" when it harms you severely.  Apparently that is a Fascist doctrine that Truman and FDR subscribed to and is now horrifying.                

You invent a straw man. Nobody in US politics has ever objected to puting US interests first, and no prominent US politician has every done anything else. If any US presidential candidate has ever acted against US interests, it is Donald Trump. In fact, the only nationalist candidate in this race in the sense of Truman/FDR/Eisenhower/Reagan/Bush/Kennedy, you name it, is Hillary Clinton.

The choice in this election is very clear. If you care about the United States of America, you vote Hillary Clinton. If you want to destroy America and its way of life, you vote Donald Trump. As simple as that.
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This is the year which people will talk about
This is the year which people will be silent about.
The old see the young die.
The foolish see the wise die.

The earth no longer produces, it devours.
The sky hurls down no rain, only iron.

Bertolt Brecht
Green Line
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2016, 04:30:59 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 05:14:09 pm »
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My point is that nationalism is mainstream and always was represented by both parties to some extent, until dems started going nuts in 68 and Republican elites went ultra-internationalist on a few issues more recently.  

People seem to be dense about "cooperation".  It isn't a goal in itself.  You build partnerships when it makes sense and you don't when it doesn't.  You don't "cooperate" when it harms you severely.  Apparently that is a Fascist doctrine that Truman and FDR subscribed to and is now horrifying.                

You invent a straw man. Nobody in US politics has ever objected to puting US interests first, and no prominent US politician has every done anything else. If any US presidential candidate has ever acted against US interests, it is Donald Trump. In fact, the only nationalist candidate in this race in the sense of Truman/FDR/Eisenhower/Reagan/Bush/Kennedy, you name it, is Hillary Clinton.

The choice in this election is very clear. If you care about the United States of America, you vote Hillary Clinton. If you want to destroy America and its way of life, you vote Donald Trump. As simple as that.

Maybe walk through how that would be true in a linear fashion... I'm guessing you can't because it's probably impossible.

Hillary Clinton has never done anything (accomplishments... she has committed crimes and destroyed things), much less something in the interest of the country.  She has accepted money from foreign governments and their agents, who obviously have interests conflicting with the United States (by definition).  

Trump hasn't been bribed by foreigners, is a builder, and a successful negotiator.  

The proof is when you bring up changing trade deals or immigration.  Both issues need to be addressed to prevent continued harm to the country (obviously).  The Dems and some GOPers freak out like you're worshiping the devil if you advocate a pro-American position.  

Hillary Clinton has quite possibly staked out an anti-American position on every conceivable issue... Trying to think of an exception is something I don't have the time to research.  It would be like finding a needle in a haystack.      

It is in her nature to pander to small or fictional grievances in order to gain votes... actually acting out your panders to fictional grievers is by definition harmful to the country.  Additionally, the political art of forming and encouraging the phantom grievance groups has a dividing effect that is harful to the nation particularly from a nationalist perspective.  Anti-marxism and nationalism in america tend to go together, so Hillary can't be a nationalist because of her proximity to neo-marxist acttivities.     
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:18:59 pm by AmericanNation »Logged
Deblano
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2016, 05:27:20 pm »
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A lot of Republicans don't care about conservatism and this election proves it.

Amen. The mask has been revealed and all that rhetoric about "muh constitution" and "muh small government" was just rhetoric and nothing more.
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 05:56:53 pm »
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A lot of Republicans don't care about conservatism and this election proves it.

Amen. The mask has been revealed and all that rhetoric about "muh constitution" and "muh small government" was just rhetoric and nothing more.

...basically.  It is kind of complicated.  I have often wondered if a national candidates ideological scorecard matters when weighed against other factors like:
1) ability to win
2) ability to call out democrat/media crap effectively
etc.

If you are a constitutional-ist and a federalist, than just keep insane democrats out of the white house and govern from the legislature and the states... like you should.

Trump will be directly involved in:
1)appointing non-lunatic judges
2)conducting a sane foreign policy
3)cutting a trade deal or two 
4)boarder security / immigration reform

5)maybe reigning in the lunatic EPA
6)appointing a cabinet obviously

Everything else is the states or congressional proposal/deal making.
so, really who cares how pure the guy is.  Democrats can't have the white house is the bottom line. 

Trumps will get 2 major issues done personally (the nationalist two) and delegate the rest to party loyalists and conservatives. 
I can live with that... It's pretty reasonable.
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Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 06:37:48 pm »
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Vanilla Nationalism aligned with the conservative movement is not Fascism.  We used to have nationalist planks in both parties in this country, Harry Truman wasn't a Fascist, but you would call him one today.  Pursuing The nations interest BEFORE the interests of others isn't Fascism, it's common sense based on logic and reason.       

Trump isn't just pushing nationalism. He's going full "palingenetic populist ultra-nationalism" with a dash of violence on top for that extra-fascist touch. All we're missing in a paramilitary wearing gold "T" armbands.
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Furthermore, I consider that the Republican Party must be destroyed.

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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 06:41:05 pm »
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I really fear for this country if Trump somehow becomes president. That will probably lead to the end of the Dollar as the reserve currency and then the sh**t really hits the fan. I would not be surprised if there were massacres in America by Trump supporting forces.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 06:43:26 pm »
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Trump hasn't been bribed by foreigners,
an assertion i would not wager money on
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is a builder,
*snort*
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and a successful negotiator.
well ok, that's true, in the same way that bernie madoff was a "successful negotiator".
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 06:58:16 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
One thing is for certain.  If we elect Trump, we deserve whatever happens.
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ag
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2016, 07:03:45 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
One thing is for certain.  If we elect Trump, we deserve whatever happens.

If you elect Trump, you deserve whatever. But we are innocent!
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This is the year which people will talk about
This is the year which people will be silent about.
The old see the young die.
The foolish see the wise die.

The earth no longer produces, it devours.
The sky hurls down no rain, only iron.

Bertolt Brecht
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2016, 07:10:37 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
One thing is for certain.  If we elect Trump, we deserve whatever happens.

If you elect Trump, you deserve whatever. But we are innocent!
NO. If America goes down we're taking the rest of the world with us, or at least Mexico.
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ag
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2016, 07:15:20 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
One thing is for certain.  If we elect Trump, we deserve whatever happens.

If you elect Trump, you deserve whatever. But we are innocent!
NO. If America goes down we're taking the rest of the world with us, or at least Mexico.

Oh, yeah, innocence is not a defense. We will be screwed horribly, I have no doubts of that whatsoever. Really, if Trump is elected I am building a bunker somewhere in the mountains to survive the next decade. BUT WE ARE NOT THE ONES WHO MADE IT HAPPEN!!!
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This is the year which people will talk about
This is the year which people will be silent about.
The old see the young die.
The foolish see the wise die.

The earth no longer produces, it devours.
The sky hurls down no rain, only iron.

Bertolt Brecht
Green Line
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2016, 07:20:56 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
One thing is for certain.  If we elect Trump, we deserve whatever happens.

If you elect Trump, you deserve whatever. But we are innocent!
NO. If America goes down we're taking the rest of the world with us, or at least Mexico.

Oh, yeah, innocence is not a defense. We will be screwed horribly, I have no doubts of that whatsoever. Really, if Trump is elected I am building a bunker somewhere in the mountains to survive the next decade. BUT WE ARE NOT THE ONES WHO MADE IT HAPPEN!!!
If Mexico had bothered to control their borders at all for the last 50 years Trump would not be where he is today.
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Dabeav
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2016, 07:38:05 pm »
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I really fear for this country if Trump somehow becomes president. That will probably lead to the end of the Dollar as the reserve currency and then the sh**t really hits the fan. I would not be surprised if there were massacres in America by Trump supporting forces.

Guerrilla forces striking from the hills and fields of the US against Trump's Gold Berets (think gold cloaks ala GoT).  That kind of civil war might have excited me 15 years ago, but now I just want to be left the f alone.  I have my Italian passport (hooray jure sanguinis laws) so I'm ready to go if he's elected.
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"The sad thing is, our foreign policy WILL change eventually, as Rome's did, when all budgetary and monetary tricks to fund it are exhausted." - Ron Paul
ag
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2016, 07:39:33 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
One thing is for certain.  If we elect Trump, we deserve whatever happens.

If you elect Trump, you deserve whatever. But we are innocent!
NO. If America goes down we're taking the rest of the world with us, or at least Mexico.

Oh, yeah, innocence is not a defense. We will be screwed horribly, I have no doubts of that whatsoever. Really, if Trump is elected I am building a bunker somewhere in the mountains to survive the next decade. BUT WE ARE NOT THE ONES WHO MADE IT HAPPEN!!!
If Mexico had bothered to control their borders at all for the last 50 years Trump would not be where he is today.

No. You are, pretty much, flat out wrong in every way imaginable.

"Controling the borders" is like controling the sea: if the water levels are very different, water will flow no matter what you do. And here the difference is dramatic, so controling it is pretty much impossible. In any case, a Mexican government that would have "controlled the borders" (or, at least, gave it a decent try) would have been a nasty and brutal dictatorship, which, by itself, would have only generated larger migration flows than what you see today. Finally, even if there had been no Mexican migrants whatsoever (which, by the way, would have implied lower standards of living for most Americans), Trump would have found something equally ridiculous to base his campaign on.

You know, there is an old joke about that old Armenian guy dying. So, he calls up his family and tells them: "listen to my last command: take care of the Jews." So, everybody is surprized: they guy himself had never shown much concern about the Jews in his life. "Why the Jews, grandpa?" asks one of them. "When they are done with the Jews, they will switch on to us" responds the old guy. Fascism does not need Jews or Mexicans: it only needs some identifiable group to resent. Blacks would have served the need admirably, methinks.
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This is the year which people will talk about
This is the year which people will be silent about.
The old see the young die.
The foolish see the wise die.

The earth no longer produces, it devours.
The sky hurls down no rain, only iron.

Bertolt Brecht
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2016, 08:16:18 pm »
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America is already fascist
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2016, 08:20:21 pm »
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IceSpear
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2016, 09:21:42 pm »
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If Americans want to elect a facist President, then so be it. We need to learn our lesson.
One thing is for certain.  If we elect Trump, we deserve whatever happens.

Yep
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IceSpear
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2016, 09:22:48 pm »
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America is already fascist

edgy
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Oak Hills
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2016, 11:34:04 pm »
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Trump does not have America's interests in mind: he does not know what these are and he does not care to learn. What he cares about is his own ego. He is willing to destroy America and the world to satisfy it.

I really like this quote. Do you mind if I put it in my signature?
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Trump does not have America's interests in mind: he does not know what these are and he does not care to learn. What he cares about is his own ego. He is willing to destroy America and the world to satisfy it.
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