What's more important: democracy, or liberalism/secularism?

[Santander]

The second is hypothetically  better, but does not exist in the real world, outside the minds of the Thai middle-class and bone-headed Western observers of Turkey.

Uh... Hong Kong and Singapore?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Democracy is just a vehicle for Liberalism.

You are a charming individual, aren't you?

[Antonio the Sixth]

The second is hypothetically  better, but does not exist in the real world, outside the minds of the Thai middle-class and bone-headed Western observers of Turkey.

Uh... Hong Kong and Singapore?

Uh, Singapore is about as illiberal as a country can be without being utterly screwed up.

[Santander]

The second is hypothetically  better, but does not exist in the real world, outside the minds of the Thai middle-class and bone-headed Western observers of Turkey.

Uh... Hong Kong and Singapore?

Uh, Singapore is about as illiberal as a country can be without being utterly screwed up.

Clearly you have a different idea or threshold of liberalism than I do. Hong Kong is definitely much more liberal than Singapore, but Singapore is basically liberal in a global context. The rest of Asia with the exception of Taiwan is less liberal, and yes, they are utterly screwed up.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The idea that you can entirely conflate liberalism and secularism (however defined) is historically illiterate.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anyway what matters is a society in which the individual is respected and has a say in formal power structures. The labels are not particularly relevant.

[TJ in Oregon]

Man if only liberalism and secularism meant the same thing in the US as they do in this thread!

I was mildly hoping for the coup to succeed based on Erdogan being awful and whatever else replacing him most likely being better, but of course that is not sufficient grounds to go any further than than a vague hope.

If the second option, instead of being liberalism/secularism was protecting he rights of citizens I would have voted for it over democracy. But with the current set I did not vote as my vote depends heavily on the semantics.

[Cassius]

Other: The security and continuing stability.

[All Along The Watchtower]

The results of this poll are quite telling. And utterly predictable.

[jaichind]

I find none of  the list of democracy, secularism, and liberalism particularly important.   I am mostly focused on property rights which I guess maps best to liberalism, if only indirectly.  So I guess I have to vote for the latter reluctantly.   

[ag]

Liberal democracy Democratic process is most important: it is the space in which political competition happens and which gives citizens a chance to change power through electoral means: that is, in a manner that is much less traumatic than violent revolution. But democracy has to be limited with liberal protections for minorities (be those ethnic/religious/political/cultural or whatever) and individual citizen rights. As long as those protections are there, I could not care less if the majority voted in a religious/fundamentalist/socialist whatever government.

However, since without democracy protection for minority and individual rights is not likely to be sustained - even if the government claims to be liberal - I am voting democracy. Democracy without liberalism is not very attractive, but true liberalism is simply impossible without democracy.

[ag]

The second is hypothetically  better, but does not exist in the real world, outside the minds of the Thai middle-class and bone-headed Western observers of Turkey.

Uh... Hong Kong and Singapore?

Uh, Singapore is about as illiberal as a country can be without being utterly screwed up.

Indeed. It is a planned socialist economy with restricted press and very limited personal freedom. If anything, it is an illustration that people can be pretty happy in an illiberal society.

[ag]

The results of this poll are quite telling. And utterly predictable.

Well, so far it is close enough to a tie.

[ag]

The idea that you can entirely conflate liberalism and secularism (however defined) is historically illiterate.

Also contemporaneously

[Intell]

Socialism and Equality.

[Boston Bread]

Liberalism has a lot more effect on my life than a political system, so I'll take liberalism.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I find none of  the list of democracy, secularism, and liberalism particularly important.   I am mostly focused on property rights which I guess maps best to liberalism, if only indirectly.  So I guess I have to vote for the latter reluctantly.   

Oh, and you too, you're such a lovely fellow.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Democracy without liberalism is not very attractive, but true liberalism is simply impossible without democracy.

Actually, depending on your definition of "liberalism", it is very possible getting liberalism without democracy, looking at the time of "enlightened despots" in Europe in particular.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I find none of  the list of democracy, secularism, and liberalism particularly important.   I am mostly focused on property rights which I guess maps best to liberalism, if only indirectly.  So I guess I have to vote for the latter reluctantly.   

The important question, of course, is did the Turkish coup attempt affect your portfolio?

[All Along The Watchtower]

I find none of  the list of democracy, secularism, and liberalism particularly important.   I am mostly focused on property rights which I guess maps best to liberalism, if only indirectly.  So I guess I have to vote for the latter reluctantly.   

Even the most extreme example of a Greedy Capitalist meme created by Marxists would still pale in comparison to you.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The continuance of the latter requires the strength of the former.

[SWE]

Both are terrible

[Simfan34]

The Turkish military may be secular, but it sure as hell isn't liberal by any functional definition, as the periods of time in which Turkey was under military rule in living memory can demonstrate. Kemalism is actually a pretty scary doctrine.

True story: The election of the first Hijabi MP in 1999 provoked a scandal that ended with said MP being stripped of her citizenship.

[nicholas.slaydon]

Option 2. Because freedom is more important than democracy.

[ingemann]

Neither because it depend on the situation and country in question.