John Kerry and the Catholic Church

[Brambila]

What's so bad about it, htmldon?

I mean, all the reformation did was create 32 thousand religions.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Catholicism:
Believe 100% of whatever the pope makes up or you are a sinner.
(Fortunately, most American Cathoics don't believe that)

Protestantism:
Accept Jesus Christ into your heart, and your sins are forgiven.
(Unfortunately, far too few American Protestants believe that)

[Gustaf]

What's so bad about it, htmldon?

I mean, all the reformation did was create 32 thousand religions.

'all'? ALL?

It also put an end to corruption within the Catholic church. It was a major step towards freedom of religion and the secular state. It saved the Christian church. And it was part of putting an end to the Hapsburg dominance of Western Europe (and the world).

That's like saying 'all democracy did was create 32 thousand parties'.

[Brambila]

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Actually, accepting Christ into your heart and automatic forgiveness is a pretty recent belief. Most of the founding protestant fathers didn't believe that. This is the thing with protestantism- it's so dynamic. You can never get the same belief from one protestant. They all believe in different things. I know some protestants who believe in the Eucharist and others who believe in the Pope.

Concerning Catholicism, the Pope is the voice of Christ on earth, we believe. Christ said "What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, what you loose in earth shall be loosed in heaven", so we say that the Pope is the one who binds and looses, as Christ told Peter this passage, who was the first Pope. So, the Pope being Christ's voice, if he makes a dogmatic statement, then you have you believe it. It's unchangable. But, for instance, if the Pope has an opinion (such as the current pope on death penalty, he's against it), you don't have to believe it.

[Gustaf]

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Actually, accepting Christ into your heart and automatic forgiveness is a pretty recent belief. Most of the founding protestant fathers didn't believe that. This is the thing with protestantism- it's so dynamic. You can never get the same belief from one protestant. They all believe in different things. I know some protestants who believe in the Eucharist and others who believe in the Pope.

Concerning Catholicism, the Pope is the voice of Christ on earth, we believe. Christ said "What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, what you loose in earth shall be loosed in heaven", so we say that the Pope is the one who binds and looses, as Christ told Peter this passage, who was the first Pope. So, the Pope being Christ's voice, if he makes a dogmatic statement, then you have you believe it. It's unchangable. But, for instance, if the Pope has an opinion (such as the current pope on death penalty, he's against it), you don't have to believe it.

Yeah, it's really annoying when peopel are different. Why can't everyone just be the same? [/sarcasm]

One of the great contributions of protestantism was the individualism.

[Brambila]

But the problem is there's only one truth. So protestants were wrong. 1+1 is ALWAYS 2. I've said this millions of times.

If you stab your arm, you WILL feel pain. If I drop a stone, it will fall.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But the problem is there's only one truth. So protestants were wrong. 1+1 is ALWAYS 2. I've said this millions of times.

The Pope doesn't have a monopoly on the Truth

[Gustaf]

But the problem is there's only one truth. So protestants were wrong. 1+1 is ALWAYS 2. I've said this millions of times.

If you stab your arm, you WILL feel pain. If I drop a stone, it will fall.

Eh? I don't get your point...you think they are wrong, b/c they have a different opnion than you? That's not very strange, but I don't see what that has to do with protestantism having different branches and stuff.

[The Dowager Mod]

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Besides your embarassing attempt to insult the Catholics on the board, your point (if I can call it that) means nothing. John Kerry is doing something EXTREMELY disrespectful to the Church (it's one of the most- if not, the most insulting and disrespectful things to do in Catholicism) and therefore, as Cardinal Arinze has made clear, should be ended.

Somebody who claims to be a devout Catholic and pro-choice is nothing more than a devout heretic.

Of_thisnation, it's completely the Church's business. The job of the priest is to give communion to those who are spiritually qualified. If you don't believe what the Pope says, if you are pro-choice, you are NOT a Catholic. To be a Catholic you must believe in EVERYTHING the church teaches, not just some. That's how heresies come about.

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Explain.

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First of all, the Catholic Church has EVERY right to get into politics, but that's irrelivent. The point is Kerry is in mortal sin, and people who are in mortal sin are committing a bigger sin by recieving communion. We don't just reject communion to politicians- many priest reject giving communion to many people who are not spiritually fit.

You MUST be 100% in faith with Catholicism to recieve communion, otherwise you're committing a sin.

the catholic church pays no taxes therefore should have no say in government or poitics.
you know the whole seperation of church and state thing.

[Brambila]

Al, no, God does, but God speaks through the Pope. The Pope, basically, is a living human bible, in a sense.

Texasgirl, Kerry is bringing Politics to the Church. The Church is getting politics out of it.

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No, I don't think they're wrong because they have a different opinion, I think they're wrong because I've studied their religion enough to know that it's not true. Gustaf, if everyone held truth, then there would be no point in believing in truth, would there?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Al, no, God does, but God speaks through the Pope. The Pope, basically, is a living human bible, in a sense.

Who says?
---
Do you think that the Borgia Popes were "human bibles"?

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

God speaks through the hearts of individuals.  The pope and the homeless guy are the same in the eyes of the Lord.

There is only one truth.  There is no man who possesses the right to proclaim on his own what that truth is.

[Brambila]

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Christ said in Matthew 16:18-20. Even the Borgia Popes. That doesn't mean that everything they DID was right, but all the bulls and official doctrinal statements they made were correct.

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God holds all truth. But he tells us this truth through Papal authority, as CHrist explicitly said in Matthew 16:18-20. Yes, the pope and the homeless man may be equally spiritual (sometimes the Pope is more spiritual, sometimes the homeless man is more spiritual), but the Pope is the one who proclaims dogma.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Quote please?

[Gustaf]

Al, no, God does, but God speaks through the Pope. The Pope, basically, is a living human bible, in a sense.

Texasgirl, Kerry is bringing Politics to the Church. The Church is getting politics out of it.

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No, I don't think they're wrong because they have a different opinion, I think they're wrong because I've studied their religion enough to know that it's not true. Gustaf, if everyone held truth, then there would be no point in believing in truth, would there?

I don't get the relevance of what you said. I said that there was nothing wrong with people having different opnions. You replied that everyone else was wrong. You're 16, if memory serves me, and you claim to you have already conducted sufficent religious studies to state, with confidence, that all the 32 thousand Protestant religions are wrong? You must have had a lot of free time...

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Since my Bible is probably banned because the Pope didn't kiss it first, I hate to offend him with a passage.

Brambilla, close your eyes - I know you aren't supposed to be reading what Christ said yourself!

"18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[1] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[2] will not overcome it.[3] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. "

Basically, Christ is just calling Peter a rock.

Otherwise, its meaningless to Brambila's implications.

[Brambila]

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Notice 19, specifically. "WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH WILL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH WILL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN".

And also, htmldon, many bibles have been printed- such as the Jehova's Wittness Bible -- that are truly heretical. So yes, you do need to have an approved bible. I use Protestant bibles anyway, and Catholics are allowed to, except in churches.

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It's very easy to know why all these protestant religions are wrong. First of all, 90% of them were created within the last two centuries, with no basis other than not liking the church they were in before. Second, Christ created ONE Church that he said he would NEVER leave. Some protestants believe that the Catholic Church was this Church up until the reformation, where Lutheranism (or Anglicanism) took over and was the true Church (anglicans actually believe Catholicism is the true Church also). There are only two different kinds of religions, which are actually one religion with different beliefs of papal authority, that have been around since the time of Christ, and those are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (Orthodoxy actually technically appeared in the 1000's, but they had the same beliefs before then). Seeing that only the Catholic and Orthodox have unchanged, unregretted doctrine, and that we've only added doctrine, and that since then we've had a constant succession of popes, we can tell that truly this is the Church of Christ.

How do I know Christianity's the true religion? Which religions claim truth? Three. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. So it's easy to find truth. God didn't make it to be life tackling and mind boggling.

[KEmperor]

Yes, so that passage implies that anything the pope decrees is god's word.  This implies that the pope is infallible, since whatever he says is held true in heaven.  

Since history has shown that the pope is not infallible, and many popes have indeed been quite clearly wrong in the past, it means that there is no divine message in the pope's words, but his own fallible opinion.

[Brambila]

What DOCTRINAL acts have popes commited that were falliable?

[Kodratos]

What DOCTRINAL acts have popes commited that were falliable?

If all Popes taught only the truth, then why has the church changed so many times? Surely you don't believe that Pius XII and Pope John Paul agreed on everything when it comes to scriptural doctrine?

By the way, I read in NR that John Kerry quoted Pius XIII in his defense when asked about his church problems. Any real Catholic will laugh at that. The guy doesn't even know which popes have served during his lifetime.

[Brambila]

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Fortunately, John Kerry isn't a Catholic by faith, but Catholic by name. Kind of like his Purple Heart record and Ivy League education.

I'm sure Pius XII would have approved of Pope John Paul II's doctrinal beliefs. Our beliefs have been the same, we've just proclaimed them. The Orthodox and Catholics believe the same thing, it's just the Catholics have proclaimed them.

[Kodratos]

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Fortunately, John Kerry isn't a Catholic by faith, but Catholic by name. Kind of like his Purple Heart record and Ivy League education.

It's actually quite sad, what's happening to the Catholic church. It's fallen into a Jewish-like state, where more people are becoming secular Catholics. Many Catholics think you can be Catholic, but not a Christian(much like being Jewish by descent but not being religious). Kerry would definately fall into that category.

[Gustaf]

What DOCTRINAL acts have popes commited that were falliable?

Comitting incest might not be doctrinal, but it's still pretty wrong I'd say...and how come then that the Catholic church disagreed on who the pope was? Who was the right pope then? Or can there be more than one at the same time?

I suppose that the cardinals who electe the pope mist also be infallible?

[Ali]

I cannot respect a man that does not take his religion seriously. This is one of the reasons I am seriously leaning toward George Bush.

[Brambila]

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You're completely correct. Satan is doing a very good job attacking the Church.

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There can only be one Pope at one time. During the Western Schism, there were three Popes claiming the pontiff I believe- Pisa, Rome, and Avignon. The only true Pope was in Avignon, in exile from Rome. Catherine of Siena helped to get the Pope back to Rome. The other ones who claimed the Papacy were nothing more than lay men.

Incest is a sin in the church, as it has been for the longest time. Pope Alexander committing incest, yes, but that doesn't make him fallible on doctrinal issues. All men are fallible, as Romans says (except for Christ, Adam and Eve before original sin, infants, unborn children, and the Virigin Mary), however, the Pope is infallible in proclaiming doctrine.