Israel and Palestine

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

I don't mean this as some sort of gotcha, but that is partially what Israel--Israel as such, Israel as a state concept, not the current situation in Israel, with the Likudniks--is there for in the first place.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

I don't mean this as some sort of gotcha, but that is partially what Israel--Israel as such, Israel as a state concept, not the current situation in Israel, with the Likudniks--is there for in the first place.

It will never work.

And, BTW, Likudniks are not an aberration. They are what Israel is about. What has happened was pretty much inevitable from the beginning.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

I don't mean this as some sort of gotcha, but that is partially what Israel--Israel as such, Israel as a state concept, not the current situation in Israel, with the Likudniks--is there for in the first place.

It will never work.

I'm not sure I disagree, but that's no reason not to try.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

I don't mean this as some sort of gotcha, but that is partially what Israel--Israel as such, Israel as a state concept, not the current situation in Israel, with the Likudniks--is there for in the first place.

It will never work.

I'm not sure I disagree, but that's no reason not to try.

It cannot work. I am not in the business of designing perpetuum mobile.

Likudniks are not an aberration. They are what Israel is about. What has happened was pretty much inevitable from the beginning.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

I don't mean this as some sort of gotcha, but that is partially what Israel--Israel as such, Israel as a state concept, not the current situation in Israel, with the Likudniks--is there for in the first place.

It will never work.

I'm not sure I disagree, but that's no reason not to try.

It cannot work. I am not in the business of designing perpetuum mobile.

Likudniks are not an aberration. They are what Israel is about. What has happened was pretty much inevitable from the beginning.

The specific toxic combination of hawkish, expansionist nationalism and socioeconomic policies that are self-admittedly translations/importations of Republican policies was not inevitable from the beginning, and the current political cleavages in Israel are probably more due to Ashkenazi Labor Zionist bigotry against and mistreatment of the Mizrahim than anything else--which I would certainly classify as an unforced error, morally speaking.

If what you mean is that some form of aggressive nationalism in general was involved from the beginning, then yes, that's true, and is obviously a much more significant moral-conceptual flaw, but surrounding countries certainly aren't guiltless in the way they responded to the Israeli project either. There is nothing inherent to the idea 'a Jewish state in the southern Levant' that, as of the beginning of the Zionist movement, should have necessitated decades-long internecine conflicts and occupations.

[MalaspinaGold]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Or one must fight. But then again, you are too fat and sweaty to fight. And fighting would not go well with your antidepressants. So yes, run while you can.
Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, and all I'll say is that the logic strikes me as baroque but also bizarrely complacent at the same time.

Or one must fight. But then again, you are too fat and sweaty to fight. And fighting would not go well with your antidepressants. So yes, run while you can.
Not complacent. Despairing. When it happens, there will be nowhere to run.

If you want to fight, volunteer for NGOs working with refugees.

And, alas, I have never tried an anti-depressant. I do not even drink much anymore - a beer a month or so these days. Some of the evangelicals on this forum should pronounce me a saint, really.

[Famous Mortimer]

The solution to prejudice is to eliminate prejudice, not to indulge it by engaging in ethno-separatism.

[MalaspinaGold]

The solution to prejudice is to eliminate prejudice, not to indulge it by engaging in ethno-separatism.

Yes, just like in order to jump higher you should get rid of gravity.

[DavidB.]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

The State of Israel is the number one institution that keeps us safe everywhere in the world.

It is really quite striking how colonized ag's line of reasoning is. Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized. They held on to their identity. By contrast, in ag's ideal world, Jews would simply assimilate and cease to exist, and in the absence of that utopia we should remain at the mercy of others (MUH EU!). No independence. No self-respect. No strength. No pride. Really sad.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

The State of Israel is the number one institution that keeps us safe everywhere in the world.

It is really quite striking how colonized ag's line of reasoning is. Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized. They held on to their identity. By contrast, in ag's ideal world, Jews would simply assimilate and cease to exist, and in the absence of that utopia we should remain at the mercy of others (MUH EU!). No independence. No self-respect. No strength. No pride. Really sad.

I definitely think that what ag is advocating is pretty abject, but I don't see the evidence for him wanting Jews to assimilate out of existence.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

The State of Israel is the number one institution that keeps us safe everywhere in the world.

It is really quite striking how colonized ag's line of reasoning is. Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized. They held on to their identity. By contrast, in ag's ideal world, Jews would simply assimilate and cease to exist, and in the absence of that utopia we should remain at the mercy of others (MUH EU!). No independence. No self-respect. No strength. No pride. Really sad.

I definitely think that what ag is advocating is pretty abject, but I don't see the evidence for him wanting Jews to assimilate out of existence.

I have no particular preference on this last point. I have no desire to assimilate personally - in the sense that I am not going to deliberately do anything to become less Jewish or to conceal my identity. I wish my kids "a gute nakht", would sell my soul for a good gefilte fish, have a complete works of Sholom Aleykhem on my bookshelf (in Russian) and tell stories about ancestors in the shtetl (fortunately, I know quite a few). But, then, I also speak Russian at home and, for the most part, English elsewhere, eat buckweat and hamburgers, hate corn tortillas and otherwise refuse to assimilate into the Mexican society, either as a Russian or as an Anglo. That is me, and just me and has no implications even for the rest of my family. I would have no objections to my daughters marrying Chinese guys, converting to Hinduism and moving to Kenya.

To the extent that Jews survived as a distinct group for milenia they did so as the archetypal unassimilable migrant minority locked into separatist ultra-religious communities. While I have no desire to belong to such a community, I would respect the right of its members to voluntarily maintain such a lifestyle. I definitely oppose any effort on the part of the larger society to supress such communities: whatever their religion. But my opposition would not be based on any belief in intrinsic value of such communities, but on my belief in individual freedom to live the way one likes.

So, while I definitely appreciate Jewish culture (especially its gastronomic aspect of the Ashkenazic variety) and enjoy my own Jewishness, I do not really assign it any unique value among other such cultures. I mean, it is always a bit sad when interesting phenomena disappear. Karaites or Parsis, among many others, as of today are, obviously, much more in danger of disappearing, and I pretty much feel the same way about them. I definitely would support efforts to preserve their cultures: as long as these are voluntary and do not hurt anybody else.

And, of course, I am Ashkenazic, rather than Jewish. Pan-Judaism is far too abstract for me. I have no family stories about the days of King Salomon, or even those of Bar Kochbah: both are as alien to me as ramseses and alexanders.  I do feel sad about the death of the Yiddishkayt (I would leave it to the offspring of Saloniki to cry for the Ladino world). If anything, that sentiment does nothing to endear Israel to me. However, what is done, is done. Secular Yiddish world has been murdered by Hitler and its corpse has been disowned and repudiated by the Zionists.  My great grandfather's library has been thrown out before I was born. During my lifetime they will still be doing decent chopped herring - I will have enough to eat in joyful mourning. That is sufficient.

[ag]

The solution to prejudice is to eliminate prejudice, not to indulge it by engaging in ethno-separatism.

Yes, just like in order to jump higher you should get rid of gravity.

It is not the matter of prejudice (though, of course, one should, at least, avoid practicing it - subjects to norman limitations of human spirit). It is the matter of institutions that prevent murder. That is about all we can hope for.

[ag]

What makes us safe are the institutions that make it difficult (alas, I can no longer say impossible) for the past to be repeated. Israel undermines those institutions - it is making us less safe, not more.

The State of Israel is the number one institution that keeps us safe everywhere in the world.

A baseless statement I feel free to disagree with.

[ag]

It is really quite striking how colonized ag's line of reasoning is. Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized. They held on to their identity. By contrast, in ag's ideal world, Jews would simply assimilate and cease to exist, and in the absence of that utopia we should remain at the mercy of others (MUH EU!). No independence. No self-respect. No strength. No pride. Really sad.

1. Ghetto is what preserved Jewishness over the milenia. If not for it there would have been no Jews today. It was what our ancestors were, it was their choice.  While I myself have no desire to return to one, repudiating the ghetto, in my book, is betrayal.

2. Our ancestors had pride. You, however, despise them. I respect them for what they were.

3. One thing they did not do is opress others. I do not think there can be a better reason to be proud of being anyone's offspring. That is, in fact, the highest nobility there can be.

4. I do not want any mercy. Least of all, I would like to remain at your mercy - I would not believe in it for a second. Nor do I believe in the mercy of the State of Israel.

5. It is not the mercy of the EU that I believe in. It is its nature.

6. And if I am wrong on that last count there will be nowhere to run in any case.

[DavidB.]

Some would refer to such a state of mind as ghettoized, but I disagree: our ancestors in the ghetto had Jewish pride and are often mischaracterized.

1. Ghetto is what preserved Jewishness over the milenia. If not for it there would have been no Jews today. It was what our ancestors were, it was their choice.  While I myself have no desire to return to one, repudiating the ghetto, in my book, is betrayal.

It was not their choice. But I agree with the rest of what you say here, as you could have understood from my post. I also largely agree with your paragraph on unassimilable minorities having the right to be who they are, to live how they want to.

2. Our ancestors had pride. You, however, despise them. I respect them for what they were.

It seems you have strong feelzzz on this, but you never care to elaborate on this and that's obviously because you simply cannot. It is not me but you who does not respect our ancestors.

3. One thing they did not do is opress others. I do not think there can be a better reason to be proud of being anyone's offspring. That is, in fact, the highest nobility there can be.

hurrrr durrrrrr palestinians r the new jews me so edgy

4. I do not want any mercy. Least of all, I would like to remain at your mercy - I would not believe in it for a second. Nor do I believe in the mercy of the State of Israel.

You will never remain at my mercy, and that is fortunate, because I would probably not be good enough of a person to grant it to you even if I'd hope otherwise. But all is in the hands of G-d, who is infinitely better than I am. The State, by the way, is not merciful either, as any former Gush Katif resident can tell you. Yet G-d is.

The more interesting question, however, is why you came up with the term mercy. I haven't mentioned it. Strong Jews need no mercy from anyone but G-d. It shows something about your mentality. That's rather tragic.

5. It is not the mercy of the EU that I believe in. It is its nature.

Liberal institutionalism is nothing more than a tool for the strong to remain strong. The weak seldom profit from it, and if they do, it is on an indirect basis. If you believe in the nature of the EU it's because you have become part of the strong. On the basis of your own definition, would you still be a Jew in that case?

6. And if I am wrong on that last count there will be nowhere to run in any case.

There will be, somewhere to the south of Lebanon -- because of better Jews than you.

Otherwise I disagree with your unsustainable cultural libertarianism but not to the point where I care much for it -- yours is the opinion of the majority of non-observant, non-Israeli Jews in this day and age. The consequence of it, however, would definitely be that we are to assimilate out of existence. Without Torah, Jews stop being Jews in a few generations. They literally stop knowing they're Jewish. It is not something I would want for my children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. But the consequence of Jews like you making your lifestyle choices and Jews like me making mine is that the Jews with the strongest identities will remain and the ones with the weakest identities will assimilate, and I won't lose sleep over that.

[ag]

we should remain at the mercy of others

followed by

The more interesting question, however, is why you came up with the term mercy. I haven't mentioned it.

So, I wonder. Do you read your own posts?

[ag]

The consequence of it, however, would definitely be that we are to assimilate out of existence. Without Torah, Jews stop being Jews in a few generations. They literally stop knowing they're Jewish. It is not something I would want for my children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. But the consequence of Jews like you making your lifestyle choices and Jews like me making mine is that the Jews with the strongest identities will remain and the ones with the weakest identities will assimilate, and I won't lose sleep over that.

Israelis have develped into something I do not recognize as remotely Jewish, anyway. The cult of the soldier alone is something that is highly distasteful. And, of course, whoever thinks falafel and humus are their ethnic food are, by defnition, Arabs in my book, whatever their religion may be. They are not my tribe, and I am not theirs.

My tribe is nearly dead, anyway. Yiddishkayt is gone. All that is left is gefilte fish, and even that is becoming increasingly stale.

[ag]

5. It is not the mercy of the EU that I believe in. It is its nature.

Liberal institutionalism is nothing more than a tool for the strong to remain strong. The weak seldom profit from it, and if they do, it is on an indirect basis. If you believe in the nature of the EU it's because you have become part of the strong. On the basis of your own definition, would you still be a Jew in that case?

Strength is entirely orthogonal to anything I care about. It is a Trumpista shibboleth, that I have no meaning or need for.

And no, EU is not about strength or the strong. It is about a conscious restriction on strength. Countries (I do not like the word "Nations") denying their own sovereignty, restricting their freedom, to avoid harming those around them. In the end, EU is about humility, not strength. The greatest European statesman today is Angela Merkel, not the lepens and farages.

[ag]

3. One thing they did not do is opress others. I do not think there can be a better reason to be proud of being anyone's offspring. That is, in fact, the highest nobility there can be.

hurrrr durrrrrr palestinians r the new jews me so edgy

I do not expect you to be. You would need to have a sense of shame for that - something, which, in all probability, you are constituionally incapable of feeling.

[ag]

2. Our ancestors had pride. You, however, despise them. I respect them for what they were.

It seems you have strong feelzzz on this, but you never care to elaborate on this and that's obviously because you simply cannot. It is not me but you who does not respect our ancestors.

Zionism has always been built on despising the ghetto. Zionists hated the backwardness, the humbleness, the zhargon - everything that has made the Jews the Jews. Zionism is religion of proud children, based on despising their parents.

[ag]

1. Ghetto is what preserved Jewishness over the milenia. If not for it there would have been no Jews today. It was what our ancestors were, it was their choice.  

It was not their choice. But I agree with the rest of what you say here, as you could have understood from my post.

So, if ghetto was not a choice, and, given that you agree with the rest, are you going to thank those who forced the Jews into ghettos for preserving Jewishness? Please do, I am listening.

[DavidB.]

we should remain at the mercy of others

followed by

The more interesting question, however, is why you came up with the term mercy. I haven't mentioned it.

So, I wonder. Do you read your own posts?

Hmm, it appears I read too fast. Hope you feel good about yourself right now!

Israelis have develped into something I do not recognize as remotely Jewish, anyway. The cult of the soldier alone is something that is highly distasteful. And, of course, whoever thinks falafel and humus are their ethnic food are, by defnition, Arabs in my book, whatever their religion may be. They are not my tribe, and I am not theirs.

My tribe is nearly dead, anyway. Yiddishkayt is gone. All that is left is gefilte fish, and even that is becoming increasingly stale.

Whoever thinks Judaism is about food is silly. I, for one, have never come to like the taste of hummus. Then again, as a vegetarian, I say no to gefilte fish too

On a more serious note, the Old Jew vs. New Jew thing has always been utterly silly (even if it has empowered us in critical times, when it was arguably necessary). Jews are both Yehuda HaMaccabi and the Torah scholar in the ghetto. Anyone who persuades themselves into believing either the thinking Jew or the fighting Jew isn't really Jewish is wrong and historically illiterate.

Strength is entirely orthogonal to anything I care about. It is a Trumpista shibboleth, that I have no meaning or need for.

And no, EU is not about strength or the strong. It is about a conscious restriction on strength. Countries (I do not like the word "Nations") denying their own sovereignty, restricting their freedom, to avoid harming those around them. In the end, EU is about humility, not strength. The greatest European statesman today is Angela Merkel, not the lepens and farages.

Trump isn't about strength, he's all about exploiting people's weaknesses and enabling them to be the worst versions of themselves, and, at the risk of sounding like some liberal Reformnik, that is literally the opposite of Judaism in which people ought to strive to be the best versions of themselves. As for the EU, I'm a "believer" in rational choice theory, and European politicians have consistently gone through with the European integration process simply because it has greatly benefited them and people like them. It has produced the political cleavage that is becoming ever more salient. The EU has brought about some good developments, mainly regarding free trade and the common market, but it has had quite some downsides too, and in any case one thing it most certainly did not do: change Europeans. As a Jew in Europe I do not have any illusions regarding Jews' (non-existent) "whiteness", and recent developments in, for instance, Sweden have only strengthened that impression.  

I do not expect you to be. You would need to have a sense of shame for that - something, which, in all probability, you are constituionally incapable of feeling.

There is no shame in defending one's people and one's land.

Zionism has always been built on despising the ghetto. Zionists hated the backwardness, the humbleness, the zhargon - everything that has made the Jews the Jews. Zionism is religion of proud children, based on despising their parents.

Zionism didn't start in Europe -- it started in Egypt and has always lived on in the soul of every Jew. You are talking about early modern Zionism, not about Zionism. I don't have much in common with any particular brand of early modern Zionism. All were wrong on many issues and especially Labour Zionism committed certain terrible crimes. They were necessary in the grand scheme of things but that's about it. Zionism is not about despising the Jewish past, and those Zionists who did were mistaken.

So, if ghetto was not a choice, and, given that you agree with the rest, are you going to thank those who forced the Jews into ghettos for preserving Jewishness? Please do, I am listening.

Thank our oppressors? I'd be crazy to do that. They did not keep us together. G-d did, and it is Him I thank for keeping us together through these times and for making us thrive in our own homeland right now.

[ag]

I'm a "believer" in rational choice theory, and European politicians have consistently gone through with the European integration process simply because it has greatly benefited them and people like them.

"Chaim, you hear, they are teaching us commerce!"

You are going to teach me rational choice? I teach (and develop) it for living

I never said that Europeans do not do this because of their personal interest. But they understand, that their personal interest requires agreement and limitations. Their notion of self-interest is based on the understanding that it is very hard to prevent those sorts of conflagrations that nearly destroyed Europe in the first half of the 20th century. They learnt the lessons, which Zionists, alas, rejected.

[ag]

Thank our oppressors? I'd be crazy to do that. They did not keep us together. G-d did, and it is Him I thank for keeping us together through these times and for making us thrive in our own homeland right now.

Which god? I mean, I once had a paper where we proved existence of god, but had real trouble with uniqueness. In fact, by construction, we got infinitely many of those - I guess, Hindus are right Very much rational choice, BTW