California Secession referendum in 2018?

[136or142]

1. I don't care if it was independent for one day, it was a sovereign state. This example has no relevance.

2. By this logic, there were literally be countries breaking up every day into smaller and smaller fragments. Also, a democracy always has people that lose elections, otherwise I'm not exactly sure what the point would be. Finally, there's a difference between not being a full democracy and being a dictatorship. Nuance is a real thing that is sadly neglected by you and those like you.

1.Why? Because you say it has no relevance?  Why should I care what you say?
You also seem to have completely forgotten the separation of Slovakia from the Czech Republic.  There are many examples of successful separations of nations.

2.Of course there are nuances to democracy.  Some democracies may ban hate speech, and other democracies may regard free speech as absolute.  Some democracies may take away the voting rights of felons, and others may not.  Some may have universal suffrage at 18 and others at 21. That's not what I or the Economist Intelligence Unit is really referring to.  In our cases, the idea that you can have a partial democracy is like being a little bit pregnant.  

The United States under the Republicans is an oligarchy with voter suppression in the Republican states and is, under Trump, quickly sliding into being a full blown authoritarian state, even if it continues to hold (sham) elections under Trump and his successors.

The CBC British Columbia program "The Early Edition" had a couple political science professors on this morning, while both were left leaning, they were mainstream professors and one said "for the first time in my life, I wonder if the U.S will hold another Presidential election."  The second professor agreed.

I actually would have preferred some idiot pro Trump professor just to have some disagreement.

[136or142]

No, wait, stop. Please read the context of the thread. The first one to claim that something was irrelevant was watermelon. He claimed I was deluded because I brought up the Civil war from the 19th century, even though that is literally the only time states have seceded from the Union. It is the most relevant example whatsoever.

I never said that there was never a case where a region left a country. All I said was, there are many reasons why those are a bit different, and then I listed them. Your style of debate and power of reading comprehension is very lacking. Please take a class or something, my man.

Your second point is insane. "Not even Alex Jones would say something so out there," to quote an esteemed member of the forum community. The US is not a dictatorship or totalitarian state. No sham election was held, and voter suppression existed long before Trump. Also, if you haven't noticed, we still have a court system that has ruled unconstitutional many voter suppression tactics and gerrymandered maps. That wouldn't exist in a totalitarian state.

1.I haven't read the prior posts.  I was referring to successful separations.

2.I didn't say it was.  I said the U.S is an oligarchy that is sliding into being an authoritarian state.  

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

The Supreme Court will be a majority and highly partisan Republican court once this court jester is approved, I think you are very naive if you believe this court will continue to rule voter suppression tactics as unconstitutional.  Turkey had been a democracy for more than 80 years prior to Erdogan (though Ataturk clearly made a mistake in having the military be the guarantor of democracy rather than the judiciary)  and the Philippines is sliding into dictatorship.  Before them was Hungary, Poland and Russia, all of these under right wing populists.

The idea that one want to be authoritarian can't bring about a dictatorship when left unchecked is a naive hope.  The Republican Congress is doing nothing to challenge Trump and court orders are allowed to be ignored.

I completely disagree that genuinely believing that there won't be an election in 2020 is an idea even to insane for Alex Jones to contemplate.  (Alex Jones actually predicted that under Obama there wouldn't be an election in 2012 and 2016, and before then, that under Bush there wouldn't be an election in 2008.  So, you clearly don't actually know anything about Alex Jones, though that really isn't significant.)

In this case though, I think rational people have good reasons to believe that if an election is held in 2020 that it will be a sham election.

[136or142]

Well, obviously, watermelon doesn't know much about him either, consider he said that my comments were crazier than his. Anyway, I'm waiting to see what happens in the Court over the next four years, and these midterms as well.

And seriously, there will be an election in 2020, and 2018 for that matter. Let's not go all crazy yet.

Sure, but will it be a genuine election or a sham election?  

I don't think most Trump supporters care if the U.S is a genuine democracy as long as Trump is the ruler.
So, don't expect any universal uprising as Trump and the Congressional Republicans pay less and less attention to democratic institutions.

"It can't happen here" can also be 'famous last words.'

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/american-fascism-it-can-t-happen-here-1.3824591

[Sir Mohamed]

California should leave the union and take ALL of Hollywood with them. The left is deluded as it always has been. I guarantee everyone on this forum and you can quote me on this should there be a secession, California will become a third world hell hole and the laughing stock of North America. Businesses would rather stay in the United States than California should they become independent. Let their economy go bust by electing Sanderista's and making more and more regulations. No one will want to stay there at all. It will be brutal to live in that hell hole should they become independent. Trump should already start constructing the wall around California.

LOL, no. I don’t support CA independence as of now, but it would become a prospering country with health-care for everyone, a well-regulated financing industry and useful gun laws. And a beacon of hope where people of all backgrounds who are applying by the rules are welcomed with open arms.

[Young Conservative]

I'll fight this to the death. #LincolnRepublican @RINOTom

[PMHub]

Both CA and the USA would suffer heavily if they parted ways

[politicallefty]

California should leave the union and take ALL of Hollywood with them. The left is deluded as it always has been. I guarantee everyone on this forum and you can quote me on this should there be a secession, California will become a third world hell hole and the laughing stock of North America. Businesses would rather stay in the United States than California should they become independent. Let their economy go bust by electing Sanderista's and making more and more regulations. No one will want to stay there at all. It will be brutal to live in that hell hole should they become independent. Trump should already start constructing the wall around California.

I think that's funny. Your side really is that deluded into thinking that right-wing authoritarianism is the best way to go. Where in the world does that actually succeed and benefit the people? The most prosperous nations in the world with the best outcomes in terms of life expectancy and general well-being have policies that support the working class.

The only downside to living in California is the cost of housing (although that is true of a number of places with high demand and slow growth of supply), and it is significant one, I will admit. California has a vibrant and diverse economy and that would continue whether or not it becomes an independent nation. The policies that are harming this state are not left-wing policies.

I support the potential 2018 referendum because I'm feeling like this country is fundamentally beyond repair. Trump is only a symptom of something much greater. I don't prefer it as a first option, but I think the option needs to be retained and it appears to be the superior option right now. Other countries adapt to their evolving political systems. The United States is constitutionally locked into a system that does not work for the people. We need fundamental, constitutional changes or we need to dissolve as a nation.

[Fusionmunster]

California abandoning the other blue states is a real jerk move, just saying.

[MasterJedi]

Secession is illegal, if they try send in the military. Don't be stupid, work within the system and bring down tiny hands drumpf fuhrer.

[Canis]

The leader of the California secession movement lives in RUSSIA how has this not been a red flag?? I am a progressive and I don't like Donnie but this is not the way!

[mianfei]

California abandoning the other blue states is a real jerk move, just saying.

If a vote to secede did pass in California, I would guess it would pass in Washington and Hawaii just as easily – more easily with Hawaii I think.

Oregon would no doubt be a case of bitter division, because the eastern counties and perhaps the southwest would be intransigently resistant to secession even if the other Pacific States voted to secede and the Willamette Valley and even the centrist coastal counties voted “Yes”.

The idea of secession by the Pacific States is not new. Ernest Callenbach had hypothesised it in the 1970s in his Ecotopia.

[OBD]

California abandoning the other blue states is a real jerk move, just saying.

If a vote to secede did pass in California, I would guess it would pass in Washington and Hawaii just as easily – more easily with Hawaii I think.

Oregon would no doubt be a case of bitter division, because the eastern counties and perhaps the southwest would be intransigently resistant to secession even if the other Pacific States voted to secede and the Willamette Valley and even the centrist coastal counties voted “Yes”.

The idea of secession by the Pacific States is not new. Ernest Callenbach had hypothesised it in the 1970s in his Ecotopia.

Reviving a dead thread but...

From the standpoint of an Oregonian, seceding with California isn't a good deal for us. We're very distinct from California as a state and will get overshadowed, culturally and politically, in a union with them easily (they have almost 10 times our population). Even if Washington was part of this union, Californians would still have a chokehold on the levers of power. I can't see Oregonians and Washingtonians basically recreating the West Cascades/East Cascades divide on a larger scale, and effectively subjugating themselves to Californian rule. If the PNW was to secede, it would be as a separate state, that while with strong economic ties and similar policy to California would have a distinct culture and government (as well as more balanced interest groups - Oregon and Washington are more even in population, and are pretty similar culturally anyway).

So, under your scenario, I think Oregon would be solidly against seceding with California because of the concerns I outlined above (not to mention the surely rabid, almost militant opposition that will arise in the southwest, east, and the Valley). Washington would be a slightly closer affair, but they would reject it too. But in the end, this is entirely speculative. Barring Donald Trump running for a third term, this will never happen.