Fremont legislature discussion thread

[Pragmatic Conservative]

Hey everyone
This thread is designed for discussion of major legislation and the current events that are occurring in the legislative assembly. It is much easier for us if you post in here instead of the debate threads.


Thanks
Speaker 1184AZ (lab-WA)

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Not to contradict the Speaker, but I actually like it when citizens participate directly in debates. We're their representatives, after all, and often the citizenry has important contributions to make that add to the quality of debate and strengthen the proposals we consider (without Goldwater's input, for instance, we might have accidentally named our region "Franklin" in the Iconography Act).

[Lumine]

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Not seeking a confrontation or to be disrespectful, but I feel I should address that:

Quite frankly, I don't think it's fear-mongering or hostility to note that a bill is deeply flawed and even irresponsible, and to point out those flaws and why they would actually do more harm than good. There was a broad agreement on those flaws being a reality, and that particular bill in the version that went for a final vote was not accounting for that.

In that sense, I would note that we all have our beliefs on how healthcare should be, but that is not so say one vision of it is automatically the right one and therefore criticism of, say, single player constitutes fear-mongering. Passing a flawed and unworkable solution is not necessarily better than passing nothing, and so I feel pointing out the problems in a bill to be a positive rather than a negative excerise.

[Leinad]

I'm with Truman, it's ridiculous to not allow outsiders to participate in debate. That is a good thing. Yes sometimes a person will come in and criticize bills you like, but that's no reason to put a blanket ban on it, thus stifling debate.

Anyway, I think the anti-science GMO bill you guys just passed is terrible. A great victory for starvation in Fremont!

[Poirot]

I can respect the speaker's preference for people not in the regional assembly to post in a discussion thread. Outsiders could intervene during a vote or start to argue with someone and the assembly lose focus.

I feel more at ease posting in a discussion thread than in a debate thread if I am not a member of that body. Just don't totally ban posting in debate and elected members should check often if there is a new post in the discussion thread.   

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I can respect the speaker's preference for people not in the regional assembly to post in a discussion thread. Outsiders could intervene during a vote or start to argue with someone and the assembly lose focus.

I feel more at ease posting in a discussion thread than in a debate thread if I am not a member of that body. Just don't totally ban posting in debate and elected members should check often if there is a new post in the discussion thread.    

If someone feels more comfortable commenting in a separate thread than posting directly into debate, that's fine by me - I contend merely that the right to participate directly ought to be preserved. I have enough faith in the Assembly's mental faculties to trust they can read a thread without being confused by the presence of non-legislators.

For what it's worth, the right to observe and participate in the proceedings of the regional government is enshrined in our Constitution, and neither the Assembly nor myself has any power to take that right away. If a citizen has something to say about a bill, I encourage them to say it wherever they are most comfortable (in debate, here, via PM).

Anyway, I think the anti-science GMO bill you guys just passed is terrible. A great victory for starvation in Fremont!

I have my own qualms with the anti-GMO provisions, but let's not exaggerate: preventing schools from serving GMO products at lunch will not significantly impact starvation. I signed the bill because I believe the expansion of school lunch programs and health education offsets any fuzziness on the GMO issue, but if someone (RFayette?) would like to propose a bill amending Section 3 of the FFHA, I would be happy to consider it.

[Pragmatic Conservative]

I won't delete this thread, but after some consideration I will remove the request that non legislators post here.

[Representative simossad]

Edited because of lack of objectivity. Look at my post below.

[Terry the Fat Shark]

Europeans know more than Americans know about American company that has been highly debated in America but not in Europe

And you clearly have absolutely failed to understand who is and isn't responsible for game activity and innovation.

We read your points and we disagreed, banning schools from serving GMO products is inherently dangerous because virtually all food has been genetically modified at some point in time, you made the statement so broad that virtually all food can now not be served at Schools.

In addition, maybe we could have talked about this more if this bill, like most of the others, was not rammed through with a "24" or "36" hour vote timeline and virtually no vote motions, just constant ramming through of legislation.

[Leinad]

Then directly do something to bring down Monsanto, some anti-monopoly bill or whatever. This is not an anti-Monsanto bill, but a bill against a positive technology that benefits society.

as long as the involvement of new users who have new ideas keeps being attacked by harsh and cocky comments like these, it is your own fault that this game suffers from inactivity and the lack of new users who want to get involved.

Blaming me, of all people, for causing the inactivity problem is frankly offensive and blatantly absurd. I was called a sock, for crying out loud--a major Laborite Senator-turn-Governor literally made a thread calling me a sock! But I didn't give up and ended up becoming President after only 13 months in the game. I understand what being unwelcoming is. Banning non-legislators from posting in threads is unwelcoming. Criticizing bills we disagree with in a political game--i.e. playing the game--is everything but unwelcoming.

I'm sorry if you took offense to my disagreement--I appreciate your activity in the assembly, that's awesome, I just don't appreciate how the assembly is being ran, with the speaker ramming through bills that I feel are disastrous, and now trying to block dissent.

[Representative simossad]

I realize that my comment was quite emotional and I instantly apologize to both of you who do a great job (or seem to do so, I am not in a position to judge). After some moments of consideration I think the problem with this bill was that we have been constantely talking past each other. I now See your point, the problem is that no one of us is a biologist who can explain the topic in a way we can base our discussion on. However, I'd like to remind everyone of considering their tone (me also) because we are here to have finden after all, and you don't achieve that by offensive punchlines that disregard the efford behind such a bill, that bothers me a lot and that is also common in other regions. Sorry mates for my statement.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Activity is a complicated reality - much more complicated, I would argue, than most give it credit for. Ultimately, you need a body of players who are committed to continuing and improving the game, so DFW is absolutely correct to suggest that individual initiative is really what matters here. Yet it is also incumbent upon the established players to create a welcoming environment for new citizens, and that means being considerate of the difficulties that come with joining a game that has been in progress for more than a decade. Constructive criticism and polite correction should never be out-of-bounds, and citizens are perfectly within their rights to express their views on legislation before this chamber - even when their views are diametrically opposed to the values and intentions of the sponsor. The brutal reality of politics is that we are never going to agree on everything (and, as far as activity is concerned, that is a good thing). That said, when we leave off the "constructive" half of the equation, especially when we resort to confrontational hyperbole, it can feel to a new player as if they are under attack, and that does inhibit activity. It's also true that many (though by no means all) of those who have criticized the bill in question responded with a bumper-sticker rejoinder about 'anti-science lawmaking' without bothering to address the actual motivation behind the proposal, which I can only imagine must be quite frustrating. Representative Goldwater is actually an excellent example of someone who was very thoughtful in his critique of the proposed GMO ban, and I for one was grateful for his contributions (one reason I support allowing non-legislators to partake in debates).

I don't think the remarks made in the debate over FFHA were out of line, and I would point out that there was debate - an amendment to strike down the prohibition on GMOs was proposed, but failed because one of the legislators supporting it forgot to vote. I have repeatedly asked the Assembly to take the necessary time to get these things right, and I will be working on an amendment to the rules requiring longer periods for voting and debate on ordinary legislation.

Then directly do something to bring down Monsanto, some anti-monopoly bill or whatever. This is not an anti-Monsanto bill, but a bill against a positive technology that benefits society.

This was my position as well. I had hoped to look into the situation with Monsanto before drafting an amendment that would address the sponsor's concern without placing this restriction on school lunch programs, but (as with the health law) the bill was brought to a vote before I had a chance to do that.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I was called a sock, for crying out loud--a major Laborite Senator-turn-Governor literally made a thread calling me a sock! But I didn't give up and ended up becoming President after only 13 months in the game. I understand what being unwelcoming is. Banning non-legislators from posting in threads is unwelcoming. Criticizing bills we disagree with in a political game--i.e. playing the game--is everything but unwelcoming.

I suppose it's a testament to the progress we've made since the ConCon that debates like this are now considered "mudslinging."

[Pragmatic Conservative]

Then directly do something to bring down Monsanto, some anti-monopoly bill or whatever. This is not an anti-Monsanto bill, but a bill against a positive technology that benefits society.

as long as the involvement of new users who have new ideas keeps being attacked by harsh and cocky comments like these, it is your own fault that this game suffers from inactivity and the lack of new users who want to get involved.

Blaming me, of all people, for causing the inactivity problem is frankly offensive and blatantly absurd. I was called a sock, for crying out loud--a major Laborite Senator-turn-Governor literally made a thread calling me a sock! But I didn't give up and ended up becoming President after only 13 months in the game. I understand what being unwelcoming is. Banning non-legislators from posting in threads is unwelcoming. Criticizing bills we disagree with in a political game--i.e. playing the game--is everything but unwelcoming.

I'm sorry if you took offense to my disagreement--I appreciate your activity in the assembly, that's awesome, I just don't appreciate how the assembly is being ran, with the speaker ramming through bills that I feel are disastrous, and now trying to block dissent.

If I didn't make it clear last night I am lifting the ban on non legislators posting in debate threads. Though this thread still can be used as an open discussion thread for the Fremont legislature.