Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 21, 2017, 12:28:59 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Election 2016 predictions are now open!.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
| |-+  Presidential Election Process (Moderator: muon2)
| | |-+  EC supporters: Do you think any other place should have an "electoral college"?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Print
Author Topic: EC supporters: Do you think any other place should have an "electoral college"?  (Read 9085 times)
The Mikado
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16270


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2017, 06:07:28 pm »
Ignore

Both Argentina and Brazil used to, though they eventually got rid of theirs.
Logged



The Handsome Monkey King Son Wukong weighs in on politics.
Compassion Fills the Void
BRTD
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 80970
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2017, 11:38:19 pm »
Ignore

Germany not only uses an electoral college to elect its President, its the same way the EC was initially designed, with the states choosing the electors, not voters directly. Of course the President of Germany is mostly just a ceremonial office.
Logged

Because "Wow, do the other options SUCK"
Kingpoleon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15310
United States


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2017, 12:13:58 pm »
Ignore

It really would work in a country as geographically, demographically, politically, and culturally diverse and encompassing as our own. The Electoral College system is a uniquely American brand. I really can't see it being practiced anywhere else successfully in the world at this point.
India? Perhaps China when it becomes more democratic?
Logged

"America now is stumbling through the darkness of hatred and divisiveness. Our values, our principles, and our determination to succeed as a free and democratic people will give us a torch to light the way." - Gerald Ford

"Good speech and good looks covers man's every vice. Plain speech and plain looks covers man's every virtue."

Economic: 1.38
Social: -2.36


LOA for 3+ Days For cognitive rest after a concussion
Figueira
84285
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8957


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2017, 08:39:06 pm »
Ignore

The 50 state governments and France (the two places mentioned by OP) are both examples of unitary governments, whereas an electoral college makes sense in a federal system.

In fact, very few democratic countries elect their chief executives directly.  The UK, Germany, Sweden, Japan, India all use parliamentary systems which, I would argue, is far more of an affront to democracy than the electoral college.
Care to explain why you think that?

Voters do not directly vote for their chief executive.  They vote for an MP who then votes for a Prime Minister in parliament.  The electoral college is a more direct election process, and it at least allows voters to illustrate a preference for a split legislative/executive branch.

What is someone to do if they love their local MP but hate that party's leader/candidate for PM?  or vice-versa? 

Same thing you do if you love Gregg Harper (or whoever, I don't know where in MS you are) but hate Paul Ryan?

Also your critique applies to the UK and India. It doesn't really apply to Germany, Sweden, or Japam.
Logged

Note: I am not actually British.

White Trash
Southern Gothic
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3813


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2017, 11:56:55 am »
Ignore

The 50 state governments and France (the two places mentioned by OP) are both examples of unitary governments, whereas an electoral college makes sense in a federal system.

In fact, very few democratic countries elect their chief executives directly.  The UK, Germany, Sweden, Japan, India all use parliamentary systems which, I would argue, is far more of an affront to democracy than the electoral college.
Care to explain why you think that?

Voters do not directly vote for their chief executive.  They vote for an MP who then votes for a Prime Minister in parliament.  The electoral college is a more direct election process, and it at least allows voters to illustrate a preference for a split legislative/executive branch.

What is someone to do if they love their local MP but hate that party's leader/candidate for PM?  or vice-versa? 

Same thing you do if you love Gregg Harper (or whoever, I don't know where in MS you are) but hate Paul Ryan?

Also your critique applies to the UK and India. It doesn't really apply to Germany, Sweden, or Japam.
The issue is that Paul Ryan isn't the nation's chief executive. The Prime Minister in the Westminster parliamentary system is the chief executive of the nation and isn't elected by the body populace.
Logged

muon2
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12908


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2017, 01:42:17 pm »

The 50 state governments and France (the two places mentioned by OP) are both examples of unitary governments, whereas an electoral college makes sense in a federal system.

In fact, very few democratic countries elect their chief executives directly.  The UK, Germany, Sweden, Japan, India all use parliamentary systems which, I would argue, is far more of an affront to democracy than the electoral college.
Care to explain why you think that?

Voters do not directly vote for their chief executive.  They vote for an MP who then votes for a Prime Minister in parliament.  The electoral college is a more direct election process, and it at least allows voters to illustrate a preference for a split legislative/executive branch.

What is someone to do if they love their local MP but hate that party's leader/candidate for PM?  or vice-versa? 

Same thing you do if you love Gregg Harper (or whoever, I don't know where in MS you are) but hate Paul Ryan?

Also your critique applies to the UK and India. It doesn't really apply to Germany, Sweden, or Japam.
The issue is that Paul Ryan isn't the nation's chief executive. The Prime Minister in the Westminster parliamentary system is the chiesf executive of the nation and isn't elected by the body populace.

That's because the drafters of the Constitution didn't want the President to owe anything to the votes of Congress, keeping with the idea of a separation of powers. The result was a body that numbered as many as Congress, but was independent of Congress.
Logged



Great American Eclipse seconds before totality showing Baily's Beads.
Figueira
84285
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8957


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 04:19:39 pm »
Ignore

The 50 state governments and France (the two places mentioned by OP) are both examples of unitary governments, whereas an electoral college makes sense in a federal system.

In fact, very few democratic countries elect their chief executives directly.  The UK, Germany, Sweden, Japan, India all use parliamentary systems which, I would argue, is far more of an affront to democracy than the electoral college.
Care to explain why you think that?

Voters do not directly vote for their chief executive.  They vote for an MP who then votes for a Prime Minister in parliament.  The electoral college is a more direct election process, and it at least allows voters to illustrate a preference for a split legislative/executive branch.

What is someone to do if they love their local MP but hate that party's leader/candidate for PM?  or vice-versa? 

Same thing you do if you love Gregg Harper (or whoever, I don't know where in MS you are) but hate Paul Ryan?

Also your critique applies to the UK and India. It doesn't really apply to Germany, Sweden, or Japam.
The issue is that Paul Ryan isn't the nation's chief executive. The Prime Minister in the Westminster parliamentary system is the chief executive of the nation and isn't elected by the body populace.

But that's only a problem in Westminster systems, not in proportional systems.
Logged

Note: I am not actually British.

Figueira
84285
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8957


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2017, 10:48:02 pm »
Ignore

And for the record I think the Westminster system is just as flawed as the US system if not moreso, even though I like the aesthetic of it.
Logged

Note: I am not actually British.

Yankee
Yankee_Mapper
Full Member
***
Posts: 241
Brazil


Political Matrix
E: 9.88, S: -5.57

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2017, 04:13:06 pm »
Ignore

Both Argentina and Brazil used to, though they eventually got rid of theirs.

That was in the military dictatorship, but in reality, it was pretty much a: The president is elected by the congress, and the congress is almost entirely composed by the military, so the president will probably be some commander. It wasn't elected by the states like in the US.

But if Brazil had a EC today, it would probably be very ugly, S„o Paulo would have 73 votes in the current system, but if it was just like in the US it would have more than 100 votes (114 to be more exact), almost half of what would be needed to win. This is what happens when everybody looks to a state and says: Yeah, let's all move to there, because the northeast sucks!!!!!!
Logged

ExtremeConservative
ExtremeRepublican
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5114


Political Matrix
E: 10.00, S: 8.96

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2017, 09:30:56 am »
Ignore

To be fair, the UK system is an EC of sorts, just with a lot more districts, but it's still winner-take-all
Logged

Far-right social, fiscal, and neo-conservative.  Semi-moderate on immigration.  Abortion is murder!

2017/18 Key Endorsements:

AL-SEN: Roy Moore (R)
VA-GOV: Ed Gillespie (R)
TN-SEN: Marsha Blackburn (R)
TN-GOV: Diane Black (R)
TN-7: Mark Green (R)
FL-SEN: Rick Scott (R)
MI-SEN: #NeverStabenowNeverKidRock
WI-GOV: Scott Walker (R)
TX-SEN: Ted Cruz (R)
TX-GOV: Greg Abbott (R)
AZ-SEN: Kelli Ward (R)
CA-GOV: Travis Allen (R) (why not?)
OH-SEN: Josh Mandel (R)
TN-4: Primary challenge
ApatheticAustrian
ApathicAustrian
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6657
Austria


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2017, 09:38:58 am »
Ignore

To be fair, the UK system is an EC of sorts, just with a lot more districts, but it's still winner-take-all

the number of districts makes it MUUUUCH unlikelier that it could even be thinkabke that the candidate who gets more votes could lose an election, which is kind of stabbing democracy in the back.
Logged

tack50
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 306
Spain


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2017, 11:29:15 am »
Ignore

I personally feel it can work in some circumstances.

1: If the EU were to ever federalize and if it elected a president via popular vote, an Electoral College would work fine. The Electoral College was a good idea for the US in the late 18th-early 19th century, and the EU is basically on that stage more or less (or even earlier). Of course there should be some kind of time limit in order not to find the EU in say, 2267 having the same problems as the US in 2017.

That's about it though. In federal states where the differences between states are very large it is also a good idea, but not as much.

Also some minor modifications would improve it like making it a 2 round runoff like France (by number of EVs) and resolving ties by who has the largest popular vote.

For all what's worth I ran all elections in Spain using an Electoral college at the autonomous community level (although not doing any reapportionments, which definitely screwed the results as some places had many more EVs than they would have even under the US system) and I'm pretty sure the country would have imploded twice.

First in 1979. The Socialist Party loses the popular vote by 4.4 points but wins the Electoral College. In a country where democracy had only been a thing for 2 years at that time (and the constitution less than 6 months old) that's not a good start at all. In our timeline there was a coup in 1981 against a centrist government by far right generals. Maybe that coup is successful against a left wing government that lost the election.

Then in 2004-2008. After the largest terrorist attack by far in Spanish history, 3 days after that the election happens, and the incumbent PP wins the election even as it loses the popular vote by almost 5 points. 4 years after that the Socialists do finally win, but it's a extremely close election like 2000 was for the US, being decided by 800 votes in the Balearic Islands. Combine that with the great recession, which hit Spain hard and there would be a lot more infighting in here.
Logged
tack50
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 306
Spain


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2017, 11:31:02 am »
Ignore

The winner of our elections usually wins the PV. Parliamentary systems select the chief executive in a way that is very similar to the Electoral College.

not at all.

1) johnson and stein didn't get any seats out of their millions of votes.

2) those non-seats also couldn't be transferred in the first place.

3) hillary won the a clear majority of those votes and wouldn't regularily need the non-existing other votes int he first place.

4) most of all, we are not killing anyone's vote just cause they are living in a federal state run by the opposite majority/living inside a city instead of a rural region.

over here, there is representation, the EC is a system which gives power only to the small minority living in tipping point states.

hillary would have won in a majority-vote system without the EC and in a represenative, parliamentary democracy - no contest.

If the US was divided into UK style constituencies with FPTP, it's not at all clear that Hillary would have won in parliament. She would still have too many votes overconcentrated in urban seats.

Yeah. Using the UK system for the US is equivalent to having the House elect the president. (so, Trump still gets elected, or to be fair, it'd be more like "Prime Minister Paul Ryan")
Logged
krazen1211
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6875


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2017, 05:52:06 pm »
Ignore

To be fair, the UK system is an EC of sorts, just with a lot more districts, but it's still winner-take-all

the number of districts makes it MUUUUCH unlikelier that it could even be thinkabke that the candidate who gets more votes could lose an election, which is kind of stabbing democracy in the back.

It's quite thinkable. See the UK 1951 election.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2017, 10:05:18 pm »
Ignore

Electoral College was a sordid compromise to solve a series of issues most of which no longer exist (and some no longer existed very quickly in the history of the United States) and were unique to Early America.

It's not a model you can export, even if you wanted to (and note that America when imposing democracy abroad a la Iraq plumbs for a parliamentary system).
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Shameless Bernie Hack
Chickenhawk
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1721


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2017, 10:17:14 pm »
Ignore

Electoral College was a sordid compromise to solve a series of issues most of which no longer exist (and some no longer existed very quickly in the history of the United States) and were unique to Early America.

It's not a model you can export, even if you wanted to (and note that America when imposing democracy abroad a la Iraq plumbs for a parliamentary system).

America no longer has small, rural states?

(yes I'm aware of the current fad about claiming that the EC was about slavery, and I plain disagree)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:28:42 pm by Shameless Bernie Hack »Logged

Why weep or slumber, America?

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~Sen Barry Goldwater
Del Tachi
Republican95
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3942
United States


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2017, 10:17:16 am »
Ignore

To be fair, the UK system is an EC of sorts, just with a lot more districts, but it's still winner-take-all

the number of districts makes it MUUUUCH unlikelier that it could even be thinkabke that the candidate who gets more votes could lose an election, which is kind of stabbing democracy in the back.

And, on the whole, British election results are probably less representative of the electorate than American election results.  The Tories won 51% of the seats with only 37% of the vote.  John Q. Adams is the only American President to ever be elected with a lower percentage of the popular vote.
Logged

2017/18 Gubernatorial Endorsements:
AL - Kay Ivey (R)
CA - Gavin Newsom (D)
FL - Adam Putnam (R)
GA - Brian Kemp (R)
ID - Brad Little (R)
MI - Bill Schutte (R)
TN - Randy Boyd (R)

VA - Ed Gillespie (R)
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2017, 12:21:35 pm »
Ignore

Electoral College was a sordid compromise to solve a series of issues most of which no longer exist (and some no longer existed very quickly in the history of the United States) and were unique to Early America.

It's not a model you can export, even if you wanted to (and note that America when imposing democracy abroad a la Iraq plumbs for a parliamentary system).

America no longer has small, rural states?

(yes I'm aware of the current fad about claiming that the EC was about slavery, and I plain disagree)

No, the main issue was that there was no history of central government between the colonies and so had to share power to a degree between them - local identities being much more important than national ones.

It's a long time since anyone could reasonably claim that was true for most of the United States.
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Del Tachi
Republican95
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3942
United States


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2017, 01:31:38 pm »
Ignore

Electoral College was a sordid compromise to solve a series of issues most of which no longer exist (and some no longer existed very quickly in the history of the United States) and were unique to Early America.

It's not a model you can export, even if you wanted to (and note that America when imposing democracy abroad a la Iraq plumbs for a parliamentary system).

America no longer has small, rural states?

(yes I'm aware of the current fad about claiming that the EC was about slavery, and I plain disagree)

No, the main issue was that there was no history of central government between the colonies and so had to share power to a degree between them - local identities being much more important than national ones.

It's a long time since anyone could reasonably claim that was true for most of the United States.

Disagree.  The idea of local representation is much more ingrained into the American psyche than it is in, say, Britain.  A large number of British MPs (especially leadership) are not even from their elected constituencies.  In the United States not only is it considered somewhat of a "scandal" when a member of Congress is found to have limited ties to his district but most Congresspeople see themselves as above all a representative of the interests of their districts more so than just vote-towing, partisan megaphones.
Logged

2017/18 Gubernatorial Endorsements:
AL - Kay Ivey (R)
CA - Gavin Newsom (D)
FL - Adam Putnam (R)
GA - Brian Kemp (R)
ID - Brad Little (R)
MI - Bill Schutte (R)
TN - Randy Boyd (R)

VA - Ed Gillespie (R)
libertpaulian
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 938
United States


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2017, 09:53:40 am »
Ignore

It would only work in countries with a full or mostly presidential system.  It would be impracticable in places with a parliamentary or mostly parliamentary system, given that the prime minister isn't nationally elected but only elected in his or her particular electoral district.  They're only prime minister by virtue of being anointed the party leader.
Logged

Region Rat.  Yes, Indiana, we're Hoosiers too!

Pragmatic Moderate Libertarian.  ELCA Lutheran.  Juvenile Attorney for the State of Indiana.
Dmitri Covasku
Rookie
*
Posts: 20
United States


Political Matrix
E: 4.00, S: -7.00

View Profile
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2017, 11:13:32 am »
Ignore

Most people around the world are confused by the system we hold, so no, it wouldn't work anywhere else. Generally, I'm not a fan of it.
Logged

Golden Civic: Pragmatic Libertarian.
Author soon-to-be
My Word: Indubitably
Zurkerx
Pages: 1 [2] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines