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Lechasseur
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« Reply #500 on: October 29, 2019, 08:27:17 am »
« edited: October 29, 2019, 08:32:00 am by Lechasseur »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative roots under Joëlle Milquet in the early 2000s, in order to become more relevant to non-Christian voters by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #501 on: October 29, 2019, 08:31:01 am »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #502 on: October 29, 2019, 08:41:37 am »
« Edited: October 29, 2019, 08:47:46 am by Lechasseur »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Yeah that was the beginning of the end for the PSC. MCC defected in what? 1998?

So in 1999 PSC did very badly as they lost their more economically right-wing voters to PRL (1999 was PSC/CdH's worst result before 2019 I believe, and I think it was still a considerably better result than their 2019 one if I recall correctly). What was the reason for MCC? Infighting between Gerard Deprez and the rest of the party? And what were the disagreements over?

After that Joelle Milquet took over the party and decided the only way to remain relevant was to ditch the Christianity and social/cultural conservatism in order to appeal to non Christians, hence the party name change in 2002. I believe the social/cultural conservatives in the party left after that for the most part (except old people in Luxembourg province), but those voters got replaced by new voters from immigrant communities in Brussels and moderately left-wing voters in Wallonia. Who then bolted after CdH decided to back MR in the Walloon government in 2018.

I may be wrong, but I think a big reason MR voted against legalizing gay marriage in 2003 while their VLD counterparts in Flanders voted for it was in order to get the votes of those PSC voters who felt alienated by Milquet. And it seems to have worked. MR really became a force in Wallonia in the mid 2000s, and I'm guessing right-wing defections from PSC/CdH is perhaps the main factor that got them there.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #503 on: October 29, 2019, 08:53:10 am »

Sophie Wilmès will replace Charles Michel as Prime Minister. First woman prime minister in Belgian history.
It's more symbolic, because this government can't do much. It's all about the next government.

I'd assume there's almost no chance of the next PM (non-caretaker) being from MR?

Yeah this is just symbolic.

I think the next PM will be Flemish.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #504 on: October 29, 2019, 08:53:40 am »

And how is the government formation process coming along?
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Zinneke
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« Reply #505 on: October 29, 2019, 09:26:14 am »
« Edited: October 29, 2019, 09:33:20 am by Zinneke »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Yeah that was the beginning of the end for the PSC. MCC defected in what? 1998?

So in 1999 PSC did very badly as they lost their more economically right-wing voters to PRL (1999 was PSC/CdH's worst result before 2019 I believe, and I think it was still a considerably better result than their 2019 one if I recall correctly). What was the reason for MCC? Infighting between Gerard Deprez and the rest of the party? And what were the disagreements over?

After that Joelle Milquet took over the party and decided the only way to remain relevant was to ditch the Christianity and social/cultural conservatism in order to appeal to non Christians, hence the party name change in 2002. I believe the social/cultural conservatives in the party left after that for the most part (except old people in Luxembourg province), but those voters got replaced by new voters from immigrant communities in Brussels and moderately left-wing voters in Wallonia. Who then bolted after CdH decided to back MR in the Walloon government in 2018.

I may be wrong, but I think a big reason MR voted against legalizing gay marriage in 2003 while their VLD counterparts in Flanders voted for it was in order to get the votes of those PSC voters who felt alienated by Milquet. And it seems to have worked. MR really became a force in Wallonia in the mid 2000s, and I'm guessing right-wing defections from PSC/CdH is perhaps the main factor that got them there.

You are right, but MR had their best result in 2007 (only time they have beaten the PS in ages) and that's partly due to Reynders actually moving away from those topics and running a campaign that didn't spook the centre-left and talked about maintaining social liberal values (against immigration). But then there was also the Charleroi corruption scandals.
 

Sophie Wilmès will replace Charles Michel as Prime Minister. First woman prime minister in Belgian history.
It's more symbolic, because this government can't do much. It's all about the next government.

I'd assume there's almost no chance of the next PM (non-caretaker) being from MR?

Yeah this is just symbolic.

I think the next PM will be Flemish.

Next PM will be Flemish yeah. Liberal family will still be largest as far as I can tell.

And how is the government formation process coming along?

Better than expected. There was talk of an early government formation for a while at the start of the month.
Now Rudy Demotte (PS) and Geert Bourgeois (N-VA) are formateurs.
They have invited the Greens back but I think ECOLO will sit out while Groen will support it because the Flemish parties (including sp.a) do not like ECOLO. At all.
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« Reply #506 on: October 29, 2019, 02:52:59 pm »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?
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« Reply #507 on: October 29, 2019, 02:56:10 pm »

Sophie Wilmès will replace Charles Michel as Prime Minister. First woman prime minister in Belgian history.
It's more symbolic, because this government can't do much. It's all about the next government.

I'd assume there's almost no chance of the next PM (non-caretaker) being from MR?

Yeah this is just symbolic.

I think the next PM will be Flemish.

Thank you Lechasser and Zinneke.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #508 on: October 29, 2019, 06:24:56 pm »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?

Yes, its easy to identify a couple of MR figures with the profile I think you are trying to draw (Willy Borsus for one). But Americans here on general just need to understand that issues such as religion's place in society, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc. are just about non-issues for large swathes of European electorates, including self-declared Christians. Belgium is not different. Its a heavily culturally catholic country, with a very strong catholic pillar and catholic genealogy that can explain a lot of good and bad characteristics about Belgium. But that's about it. 

The economic cleavage dominates in francophone Belgium especially. That's not to say MR have a radically different economic program to PS (they are after all in coalition together at the Walloon region). But your socio-economic status usually determines how you vote. cdH were by definition in Wallonia a party of rural economic renewal, dominating in Luxemburg province, and of associative governance models with a trade unions that targeted certain sections of the working class.

Prévot is trying to re-invent them into something a bit different now that they are in opposition, but encounters resistance.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #509 on: October 29, 2019, 06:26:43 pm »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?

Well I think all parties in Belgium would be left-wing on economic issues so I think as an American no party there would bother you in terms of being to economically right-wing or whatever.

Afterwards, no. I don't think there's any audience left for that.

Previously that party was the left-wing of PSC but there's no Christian party anymore.

If religion is your main factor in determining who you'd vote for you'd probably support the CdH anyway but they aren't an explicitly Christian party anymore.

MR are generally the more conservative party at this point but they're generally secular.

At this point though CdH are basically a non-factor though, they're only like the 5th largest party in Wallonia at this point and probably not any better off in Brussels.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #510 on: October 29, 2019, 06:29:17 pm »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?

Yes, its easy to identify a couple of MR figures with the profile I think you are trying to draw (Willy Borsus for one). But Americans here on general just need to understand that issues such as religion's place in society, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc. are just about non-issues for large swathes of European electorates, including self-declared Christians. Belgium is not different. Its a heavily culturally catholic country, with a very strong catholic pillar and catholic genealogy that can explain a lot of good and bad characteristics about Belgium. But that's about it. 

The economic cleavage dominates in francophone Belgium especially. That's not to say MR have a radically different economic program to PS (they are after all in coalition together at the Walloon region). But your socio-economic status usually determines how you vote. cdH were by definition in Wallonia a party of rural economic renewal, dominating in Luxemburg province, and of associative governance models with a trade unions that targeted certain sections of the working class.

Prévot is trying to re-invent them into something a bit different now that they are in opposition, but encounters resistance.

Exactly. I agree with everything you just said.

Which direction is Prévot trying to push CdH in? How is he trying to reinvent them?
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« Reply #511 on: October 29, 2019, 06:40:09 pm »

I agree apart from one thing - cdH are still a "factor" - its thanks to them we have a weird coalition in Wallonia of MR, ECOLO and PS. Despite consistently declining over the last 20 if not 30 years they have always been a kingmaker as such, even when they decide to opt out. The last 4 changes of Walloon government have effectively formed on the basis of cdH changing course. Which is frightening.

He is trying to re-invent them into the Maxime Prévot party. Taking a leaf out of a certain politician down south
The difference is, Prévot is nowhere near as shrewd, competent, communicative or intelligent as Macron. And he didn't found the party so the old guard are left and they are usually mayors in the kind of places cdH relies on.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #512 on: October 29, 2019, 06:57:05 pm »

I agree apart from one thing - cdH are still a "factor" - its thanks to them we have a weird coalition in Wallonia of MR, ECOLO and PS. Despite consistently declining over the last 20 if not 30 years they have always been a kingmaker as such, even when they decide to opt out. The last 4 changes of Walloon government have effectively formed on the basis of cdH changing course. Which is frightening.

He is trying to re-invent them into the Maxime Prévot party. Taking a leaf out of a certain politician down south
The difference is, Prévot is nowhere near as shrewd, competent, communicative or intelligent as Macron. And he didn't found the party so the old guard are left and they are usually mayors in the kind of places cdH relies on.

True, CdH are still kingmakers.

I more meant in an electoral sense, as not many people vote for them anymore.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #513 on: October 29, 2019, 06:59:57 pm »

I agree apart from one thing - cdH are still a "factor" - its thanks to them we have a weird coalition in Wallonia of MR, ECOLO and PS. Despite consistently declining over the last 20 if not 30 years they have always been a kingmaker as such, even when they decide to opt out. The last 4 changes of Walloon government have effectively formed on the basis of cdH changing course. Which is frightening.

He is trying to re-invent them into the Maxime Prévot party. Taking a leaf out of a certain politician down south
The difference is, Prévot is nowhere near as shrewd, competent, communicative or intelligent as Macron. And he didn't found the party so the old guard are left and they are usually mayors in the kind of places cdH relies on.

And then for the second paragraph, I could guess that much lol.

But is their any ideological direction he's trying to push the party in or anything?
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« Reply #514 on: October 29, 2019, 08:21:54 pm »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?

Yes, its easy to identify a couple of MR figures with the profile I think you are trying to draw (Willy Borsus for one). But Americans here on general just need to understand that issues such as religion's place in society, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc. are just about non-issues for large swathes of European electorates, including self-declared Christians. Belgium is not different. Its a heavily culturally catholic country, with a very strong catholic pillar and catholic genealogy that can explain a lot of good and bad characteristics about Belgium. But that's about it. 

The economic cleavage dominates in francophone Belgium especially. That's not to say MR have a radically different economic program to PS (they are after all in coalition together at the Walloon region). But your socio-economic status usually determines how you vote. cdH were by definition in Wallonia a party of rural economic renewal, dominating in Luxemburg province, and of associative governance models with a trade unions that targeted certain sections of the working class.

Prévot is trying to re-invent them into something a bit different now that they are in opposition, but encounters resistance.

Might I ask if Catholicism like practicing Catholics sitll exist in Belgium and the Netherlands, they seem rare nowadays if not endangered especially in the latter? Are they nations whose adherence is comparable to France but being smaller countries, it's extremely small even if the proportional figures are similar therefore it looks non existent but it's still there and will continue to be there though it's much harder to find?

I know you say it's a non issue but is there a Pro Life movement in Belgium even if its small?
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« Reply #515 on: October 30, 2019, 02:45:03 am »

They still exist in both countries yes, but church goers are on the decline. In politics, Wouter Beke is an example though of a prominent practicing Catholic.
Belgium is very much a Catholic country while in the Netherlands its only the South where there is or used to be heavy catholic majorities (its one of the main cleavages that led to the Belgo-Dutch split).

There is virtually no pro-life movement with any weight. Vlaams Belang are the most socially conservative party but most of their new electorate especially don't even know this.
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« Reply #516 on: October 30, 2019, 03:57:10 am »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?

Yes, its easy to identify a couple of MR figures with the profile I think you are trying to draw (Willy Borsus for one). But Americans here on general just need to understand that issues such as religion's place in society, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc. are just about non-issues for large swathes of European electorates, including self-declared Christians. Belgium is not different. Its a heavily culturally catholic country, with a very strong catholic pillar and catholic genealogy that can explain a lot of good and bad characteristics about Belgium. But that's about it.  

The economic cleavage dominates in francophone Belgium especially. That's not to say MR have a radically different economic program to PS (they are after all in coalition together at the Walloon region). But your socio-economic status usually determines how you vote. cdH were by definition in Wallonia a party of rural economic renewal, dominating in Luxemburg province, and of associative governance models with a trade unions that targeted certain sections of the working class.

Prévot is trying to re-invent them into something a bit different now that they are in opposition, but encounters resistance.

Might I ask if Catholicism like practicing Catholics sitll exist in Belgium and the Netherlands, they seem rare nowadays if not endangered especially in the latter? Are they nations whose adherence is comparable to France but being smaller countries, it's extremely small even if the proportional figures are similar therefore it looks non existent but it's still there and will continue to be there though it's much harder to find?

I know you say it's a non issue but is there a Pro Life movement in Belgium even if its small?

The Dutch church has been decimated, like Christianity generally in the Netherlands. Catholics were always a minority, but now they are a small minority within a minority, which means political powerlessness even compared to the small conservative Reformed population. Devout Catholics do exist, but not commonly.

Belgium is similar, although Catholicism os more common especially in more conservative Flanders, but because Catholics are a much larger chunk of the overall population the number of devout Catholics is larger. Belgium also has a small but vibrant traditionalist community, likely inherited from neighboring France, which is less common in the Netherlands. Notably, the most conspicuous mark of devout Catholicism or Orthodoxy may actually be from Christian migrants from the Middle East.

France, by contrast, has a very robust devout traditionalist minority. So although Catholic life has bottomed out there is a large enough minority to meaningfully impact political discourse and maintain a Christian presence generally in the country.
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« Reply #517 on: October 30, 2019, 09:41:39 am »

Quote
Devout Catholics do exist, but not commonly.

Do the Catholics there still have community even if it's small?

Does Wallonia still have some sort of presence like France?

How's the Catholic scene in Israel?
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« Reply #518 on: October 30, 2019, 10:19:40 am »

Quote
Devout Catholics do exist, but not commonly.

Do the Catholics there still have community even if it's small?

Does Wallonia still have some sort of presence like France?

How's the Catholic scene in Israel?

Yes, there are plenty of Catholic churches, as well as groups like Opus Dei, that operate in the Netherlands.

Wallonia'a Catholic life is less vibrant than France, but not lifeless, either.

The Catholic scene in Israel is fantastic and growing, bur as you can imagine it's not at all easy.
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« Reply #519 on: October 30, 2019, 01:55:31 pm »

Walter De Donder (candidate CD&V chairman & "the mayor from a child show") has said that there are districts in Antwerp that are completely depopulated by "our people". A controversial statement, especially from a CD&V candidate chairman. He definitely wants to profile himself as the most anti-immigration CD&V chairman. Not a bad decision in my belief.
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« Reply #520 on: October 30, 2019, 02:23:16 pm »

Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?

Yes, its easy to identify a couple of MR figures with the profile I think you are trying to draw (Willy Borsus for one). But Americans here on general just need to understand that issues such as religion's place in society, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc. are just about non-issues for large swathes of European electorates, including self-declared Christians. Belgium is not different. Its a heavily culturally catholic country, with a very strong catholic pillar and catholic genealogy that can explain a lot of good and bad characteristics about Belgium. But that's about it.  

The economic cleavage dominates in francophone Belgium especially. That's not to say MR have a radically different economic program to PS (they are after all in coalition together at the Walloon region). But your socio-economic status usually determines how you vote. cdH were by definition in Wallonia a party of rural economic renewal, dominating in Luxemburg province, and of associative governance models with a trade unions that targeted certain sections of the working class.

Prévot is trying to re-invent them into something a bit different now that they are in opposition, but encounters resistance.

Might I ask, how to help Wallonia?
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« Reply #521 on: October 30, 2019, 04:17:33 pm »

Walter De Donder : "Il y a des quartiers entièrement vidés de notre propre population"

In french for the ones who read it. Dries Van Langenhove (leader of the white identitarian group Shield & Friends and MP for federal parliament Belgium) has approved his views. Some far-right Vlaams Belangers have said that this sounds promising for 2024 (a CD&V, N-VA and VB coalition).
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« Reply #522 on: October 31, 2019, 09:09:26 am »
« Edited: October 31, 2019, 09:20:47 am by Laki »

Very positive reactions on social media about Walter De Donder. Could "Kabouter Plop" become a candidate PM for the future? Who knows, but it might destroy my childhood memories Tongue He tries to be the "right-wing" candidate on. He also sounds like the most populist candidate.



This is the almost complete opposite candidate who's more to the left on immigration, called Sammy Mahdi. Chairman of young CD&V. Would be a young face. He responded with: Leviticus 19:34. #christendemocratie like a real christian democrat.

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« Reply #523 on: October 31, 2019, 12:14:04 pm »

Hahaha Mahdi on the left on immigration? Maybe on the Flemish spectrum, but then again he is from BXL Wink


Do you mean the Humanist Democratic Center? cdH?

Yes them (though I did read about them in previous pages).

CdH abandoned its Christian and conservative, in order to become more relevant to immigrant communities by becoming a "humanist" party.

Now most people basically see them as a wishy washy party that doesn't really stand for anything.

Under Joëlle Milquet they were for all intents and purposes a left-wing party which lost them their old conservative vote, and then in the last few years they tried to pivot right again but it didn't get them their old conservative voters back and it just lost them their left-wing voters acquired during the Milquet years.

That explains their electoral collapse during the last election.

Basically in Wallonia and Brussels if you're non left-wing you vote MR (Mouvement Réformateur). And it's basically been that way since the 2000s.

Flanders has far more options in terms of parties for right-wingers.

Correct, particularly this part. MCC's defection from the Christian Social Party back in the 90s in return of the PRL abandoning its crusade (for lack of a better word) on the Catholic hold on education, effectively ensured traditional conservatives have been voting MR for ages now, although you do meet some relics who just blindly vote cdH.

Why not a religious centrist, moderate, left coalition or support a socially conservative/justice vision or there's no audience for that? If you're an MR voter, do you need be both types of conservative/right leaning or may it be somewhat possible to be little/moderate/somewhat left on economic and fiscal issues?

Yes, its easy to identify a couple of MR figures with the profile I think you are trying to draw (Willy Borsus for one). But Americans here on general just need to understand that issues such as religion's place in society, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc. are just about non-issues for large swathes of European electorates, including self-declared Christians. Belgium is not different. Its a heavily culturally catholic country, with a very strong catholic pillar and catholic genealogy that can explain a lot of good and bad characteristics about Belgium. But that's about it. 

The economic cleavage dominates in francophone Belgium especially. That's not to say MR have a radically different economic program to PS (they are after all in coalition together at the Walloon region). But your socio-economic status usually determines how you vote. cdH were by definition in Wallonia a party of rural economic renewal, dominating in Luxemburg province, and of associative governance models with a trade unions that targeted certain sections of the working class.

Prévot is trying to re-invent them into something a bit different now that they are in opposition, but encounters resistance.

Might I ask, how to help Wallonia?

I'm not sure what you mean? If cdH would help rural Wallonia? If I think they would help rural Wallonia?
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« Reply #524 on: October 31, 2019, 12:20:48 pm »

I think though that Mahdi and the President of Plopsaland are beginning to touch upon an issue though, which is that Belgian society tends to segregate itself (it was the case when we had football clubs for the catholic pillar and for secular people for example, until it became financially unviable). And now (Greater) Brussels and Antwerp are clearly designed to ensure sections of society don't mix, which creates perceived racial segregation (and "entire districts gone to foreigners" perceptions) when really its a much more complex issue.

Mahdi of course is far more effective at communicating that in a more nuanced way, especially how its not about race, nor indeed an extension of some sort of Clash of Civilisation, but more about micro-cultural aspects.

As long as you have VB and Theo Francken monopolising the immigration issue though its going to be tough not to fall into "amalgames"...the Morroccan (largely Berber origin) kids in Molenbeek are third generation immigrants, I'm a second generation immigrant myself. We are as Belgian as each other...why they are amalgamated with Syrian refugees while I am not is where the racism really lies.
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