Cuomo gets free college up to $125K, NY 1st state to do so.
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  Cuomo gets free college up to $125K, NY 1st state to do so.
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Author Topic: Cuomo gets free college up to $125K, NY 1st state to do so.  (Read 2044 times)
ReaganLimbaugh
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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2017, 07:25:15 PM »

The poor were mostly paying fees and not tuition anyways, since TAP covers up to 90% of tuition but 0% of fees. So this doesn't do much for the poor.
Oh, boo hoo. Some people will never be satisfied until we have full blown Communism.

Santander is right
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cinyc
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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2017, 07:30:31 PM »

Well, an argument could be made about using inherent natural resource wealth to fund X,Y, or Z as a free lunch.  That is basically how Alaska runs its government with a net outflow of funds to its citizens each year, right?  Of course, it's a highly volatile free lunch that could always be worth 3X or 1/3rd as much next year.

There's always an opportunity cost somewhere.  What's to say funding X is better for the economy or society or whatever than funding Y or saving the money for a rainy day or giving the money to the people?  What's to say natural resource wealth wouldn't be better managed by selling it to a private entity outright, who will try to maximize profit (the government has less of a reason to do that)?

So no, there's no such thing as a free lunch, even in your hypothetical.

Here, one can ask, for example, whether it is fair for non-college graduates who add to overall economic wealth - say your proverbial plumber - to subsidize college students taking classes in an economically worthless major, like most of the social sciences.  Is society better off if the plumber had the tax money devoted to this to invest in his business?  And we can ask whether overall tuition will go up for the so-called rich who aren't eligible for this "free" tuition.  Or non-tuition "fees" like room and board or activity fees will rise as a result.  Or if SUNY and CUNY schools won't be able to attract the best professors because there is less money to pay them.  And on and on and on.
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MM876
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2017, 11:02:00 PM »

The poor were mostly paying fees and not tuition anyways, since TAP covers up to 90% of tuition but 0% of fees. So this doesn't do much for the poor.
Oh, boo hoo. Some people will never be satisfied until we have full blown Communism.

It's not about communism, it's about having an effective program. If the goal is to increasing availability of education, this is a loophole that should be examined, not dismissed. If we're trying to make education available we're probably doing it because we want a benefit from that--economic growth through providing education to low-income areas (or something like that, I'm no economist).

And if the goal behind the program is missed, the program is pointless. From your comment I doubt you like the program already, but surely you would agree that if we want to implement a program to fix a problem, we should at least try to make that program effective?
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Shadows
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2017, 11:04:21 PM »

Well, an argument could be made about using inherent natural resource wealth to fund X,Y, or Z as a free lunch.  That is basically how Alaska runs its government with a net outflow of funds to its citizens each year, right?  Of course, it's a highly volatile free lunch that could always be worth 3X or 1/3rd as much next year.

There's always an opportunity cost somewhere.  What's to say funding X is better for the economy or society or whatever than funding Y or saving the money for a rainy day or giving the money to the people?  What's to say natural resource wealth wouldn't be better managed by selling it to a private entity outright, who will try to maximize profit (the government has less of a reason to do that)?

So no, there's no such thing as a free lunch, even in your hypothetical.

Here, one can ask, for example, whether it is fair for non-college graduates who add to overall economic wealth - say your proverbial plumber - to subsidize college students taking classes in an economically worthless major, like most of the social sciences.  Is society better off if the plumber had the tax money devoted to this to invest in his business?  And we can ask whether overall tuition will go up for the so-called rich who aren't eligible for this "free" tuition.  Or non-tuition "fees" like room and board or activity fees will rise as a result.  Or if SUNY and CUNY schools won't be able to attract the best professors because there is less money to pay them.  And on and on and on.

Opportunity cost is a different economic concept & it is almost impossible to calculate the opportunity cost e here which will be entirely based on assumptions & one could argue the loss is much greater in not investing in education but that is a different debate altogether & would derail this thread. The other point about non-tuition fees or fees for the rich rising is also ridiculous considering the state is funding this & the cost of tuition is not being passed on to other items.

A large part of the tax revenue comes from educated folks & rich folks, while the revenue from non-college educated poor households is comparatively lower & then that is a combined pool & it is difficult to distinguish whose money is going where. But by this logic, there would be no federal spending - Why should liberals opposed to the Iraq war pay for that or the 100's of B of $ in military bases. Why should some pay taxes for foreign aid to some random country with no trade relations whose destabilization won't even cause security issues?

Why would a rich household pay taxes when part of that goes to Medicaid or food stamps whose benefits they don't enjoy. Why should a young rich person pay taxes for Meals on Wheels? Not only is this logic ridiculous & will create uber narcissistic human beings, but it will destroy the society & the country in general. Anyone would get to veto the implementation of a program, just because he/she contributed a very small portion of the tax revenue to the overall tax collection of the government.

And I am baffled & surprised how people are coming with literally "alternative" definitions for "Free" when any kid knows whether something is free or not is determined by the price the user pays !
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Santander
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2017, 11:28:41 PM »

The poor were mostly paying fees and not tuition anyways, since TAP covers up to 90% of tuition but 0% of fees. So this doesn't do much for the poor.
Oh, boo hoo. Some people will never be satisfied until we have full blown Communism.

It's not about communism, it's about having an effective program. If the goal is to increasing availability of education, this is a loophole that should be examined, not dismissed. If we're trying to make education available we're probably doing it because we want a benefit from that--economic growth through providing education to low-income areas (or something like that, I'm no economist).
If that were the goal, we wouldn't be making college free. I've talked about this many times - Canada, Israel, Japan and South Korea all charge tuition fees to students to attend public colleges and have much smaller student loan programs, yet they are the only four OECD countries in the world which have more college educated citizens per capita than the US.

This is the problem with the left in America - instead of trying to improve public programs to make them better achieve social objectives, they just go dining at the socialism buffet and take single-payer healthcare from Canada, free higher education from Germany, universal basic income from Switzerland, minimum wage from Australia, and then pile them on top of complete non-enforcement of immigration laws and existing social programs like food stamps, Section 8 and school lunches. That's not the way it works.

No country has the kind of welfare state the left in the US now wants - free food, free healthcare, free education, free income, $15 minimum wage, socialized profits, punitive tax rates, non-enforcement of immigration laws - because actually, that's pretty damn close to a perverse open borders form of Communism.
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jfern
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2017, 12:17:28 AM »

The poor were mostly paying fees and not tuition anyways, since TAP covers up to 90% of tuition but 0% of fees. So this doesn't do much for the poor.
Oh, boo hoo. Some people will never be satisfied until we have full blown Communism.

Is K-12 communist?
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2017, 10:21:36 AM »

Can Cuomo get Carbon Taxes & legalize Marijuana to pretend to boost his progressive credentials?

Yes, sell yourselves smartly to the Wall Street wing of the Democratic Party, squeeze every penny. Tongue If they hate/are scared enough of Trump, they will pay any price for the Democratic Party.

Quite possibly the most overly talked about thing in American politics.
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Dr. Arch
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« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2017, 01:50:40 PM »

Might have to take a second look at Cuomo. He's getting stuff done.
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SoLongAtlas
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« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2017, 01:57:39 PM »

The poor were mostly paying fees and not tuition anyways, since TAP covers up to 90% of tuition but 0% of fees. So this doesn't do much for the poor.
Oh, boo hoo. Some people will never be satisfied until we have full blown Communism.

Santander is right

From this... NY should tie this to college affordability and a set tuition freeze. The problem is that colleges now are all about marketing and essentially are small towns when they don't need to be. That is a major driver of tuition increases. Also, NY should seek to avoid the UVA style billions in secret fund deals. Those extra funds should be used for reducing current tuition rates. Major point: tie continued funding to graduation and JOB ACCEPTANCE rates. If a school doesn't perform and put people into jobs, cut them or if necessary, shut it down.
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henster
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« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2017, 05:33:04 PM »

Most Republicans throwing tens of billions of $$ to the Pentagon only for it to be wasted on who the hell knows what like the useless F-35 jets or billions on a wall
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Santander
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« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2017, 07:03:19 PM »

Most Republicans throwing tens of billions of $$ to the Pentagon only for it to be wasted on who the hell knows what like the useless F-35 jets or billions on a wall
Republicans throw $$ at the Pentagon. Actual conservatives support a strong national defense, but are horrified that the Pentagon has never been audited.
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Gass3268
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2017, 09:01:50 AM »

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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2017, 12:40:15 AM »

     The cost of college is already exploding and we are transferring the burden to an institution that is not fettered by willingness to pay and whose interference has been the cause of this explosion in cost in the first place. This will likely lead to yet more increases in the tuition amount, with the American taxpayer and people above the income cutoff getting screwed over. A solution of creative accounting that greatly exacerbates the underlying problem is not really a solution.
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exopolitician
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« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2017, 01:33:59 AM »

It's not the greatest, but it's an okay first step.
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