Why there are so few female customers of male sex workers?

[All Along The Watchtower]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex

[All Along The Watchtower]

Also, male sexual entitlement - which yes, is a worldwide phenomenon.

[dead0man]

Obviously there are many women in horrible situations around the world, but to imply that men in the west regularly have sex with women who really don't want to do it but consent to it because they feel men are "entitled" to it is just freaking insane to me.  Have you met a western woman since 1963?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

There's actually someone I know who's pretty deeply involved in these issues and works with sex workers (which I'm using as an umbrella term) to improve their lives. (She supports full decriminalization as a temporary measure on the road to eventual abolition of the sex industry and I don't, so it's not as if I'm parroting her opinions on this wholesale.) Her understanding is that it does in fact have to do with men being brought up to feel entitled to or like they're owed sex in a way that women aren't (which doesn't necessarily mean that that's the only reason). I don't really know enough to commit to this point myself, but Antonio's not the only one making it--although I think he should probably limit himself to talking about how men are socialized without pontificating about female socialization he can't possibly have experienced.

[Mr. Smith]

Men poor enough to consider sex working are probably even more likely to end up roped into something more dangerous [if less degrading at face value] first.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Obviously there are many women in horrible situations around the world, but to imply that men in the west regularly have sex with women who really don't want to do it but consent to it because they feel men are "entitled" to it is just freaking insane to me.  Have you met a western woman since 1963?

I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't really know enough to commit to this point myself, but Antonio's not the only one making it--although I think he should probably limit himself to talking about how men are socialized without pontificating about female socialization he can't possibly have experienced.

Yeah, I should. I have read arguments written by women in favor of this point (which I found compelling), and I really wish people on the forum were more aware of these arguments, but I realize I can only go so far in developing them without sounding like an ass. I don't claim to speak for anyone, and especially not for women. I'm sorry if that's how I came across.

[Kingpoleon]

Because men are socialized from a creepily young age to consider sex as something they are owed (along with so many other birthrights that society seems to think unfold from having a dick), while women are socialized from a creepily young age to not think much about sex (at best) or view it as something they owe to men (at worst).

That's just how patriarchy works.

Wow! I never realized California, France, and Italy are so backwards compared to Arkansas.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I am curious. What specific aspects of male socialization lead to their belief that they are entitled to sex?

[dead0man]

Obviously there are many women in horrible situations around the world, but to imply that men in the west regularly have sex with women who really don't want to do it but consent to it because they feel men are "entitled" to it is just freaking insane to me.  Have you met a western woman since 1963?

I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

hey, that's great buddy

I am curious. What specific aspects of male socialization lead to their belief that they are entitled to sex?

did you skip "How to use your Sex Entitlement Cards on the women in your life" class in Jr High or something?  The book was great.  The teacher not so much, he looked like a next door neighbor on a seventies era sit-com, drove a DeLorean and reeked of Brute.

[buritobr]

It's hard to explain all the sexual behavior according to the biology. Men like oral sex and anal sex, even though oral sex and anal sex don't produce babies. Maybe because the mouth and the anus are warm and humid like the vagina.

Chimpanzees don't have oral sex and anal sex

[Associate Justice PiT]

It's hard to explain all the sexual behavior according to the biology. Men like oral sex and anal sex, even though oral sex and anal sex don't produce babies. Maybe because the mouth and the anus are warm and humid like the vagina.

Chimpanzees don't have oral sex and anal sex

     It is absurd to claim biology explains everything, just as it is absurd to claim that socialization explains everything. Human behavior in sex, as in anything else, is a combination of both nature and nurture.

[Gustaf]

This thread is a bit of a trainwreck but not really more so than I would have expected.

I think it is pretty clear that the way most women and men in society approach sex is the direct explanation. A very basic thing is that women tend to be attracted to men that have status (in some vague, broad meaning of that word) and male sex workers really don't. While men tend to care less about that when it comes to just choosing someone to have sex with.

Reasons behind that are probably both biological and social to some extent.

One thing that is true in my experience (although this is anecdotal obviously) is that female sex drive is much more dependent on external stimuli (for lack of a better term). That is, many women can go for a long period of time and not particularly want sex and then want it a lot when they find someone they're attracted to. Men tend more in the direction of wanting it to a similar extent regardless of whether anyone else is around. Again, these are all generalizations that obviously don't hold true for every individual but it seems like a logical reason for different prostitution rates.

That is what an economist would call the demand-side of the sex market. If you were to look at the supply side I suspect social reasons become more important for what people think they can do and what can be expected of them.

As an aside, people mocking the idea of male entitlement to sex are being weird. I kind of struggle to imagine how unobservant one must be to not be aware of that. The same is true of female sexual repression. And having grown up in educated, liberal, urban society in Sweden I'm probably in one the most progressive environments that exist.

[dead0man]

As an aside, people mocking the idea of male entitlement to sex are being weird. I kind of struggle to imagine how unobservant one must be to not be aware of that.

Perhaps we're misunderstanding what is meant by the phrase.  This thread is the first time I've heard of the idea, and despite asking for examples, we've yet to have one.  Are we talking like, when you go out on a date and the dude pays for it, sex is often expected?  Like from The Office (US):
Phyllis: (to Pam) You should order the most expensive thing on the menu so he knows you are worth it.
Pam: She laughs.
Stanley: If you do that, you'll have to put out.
<Pam gives an annoyed look to Stanley>
Phyllis: Well yeah, you'll have to put out.

Or something more complicated than that?

[dead0man]

Must be WAY more complicated

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

It is kind of like that, though not quite (there's a lot more to it).

[All Along The Watchtower]

I am curious. What specific aspects of male socialization lead to their belief that they are entitled to sex?

I mean it's obviously #NotAllMen but there definitely is a broad spectrum of problematic (at least) male attitudes toward sex in societies around the world that range from things like passive aggressive resentment toward being "friendzoned" all the time to aggressive serial rapists (though that crime, it must be stressed, has a lot more to do with asserting power and yes, entitlement, which is expressed through sexual assault rather than merely being about sex per se). With plenty of things in between.

But yeah, plenty of men have healthy attitudes toward sex. That doesn't mean that what we're discussing here isn't a real social problem. Certainly there's a biological element to it, but I'm not at all convinced that there isn't a lot of unhealthy socialization involved as well. And like I said, it's a spectrum; for a lot of men these attitudes aren't black or white. Very complicated, like dead0man said (however ironically).

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I don't necessarily disagree that many young men I know have "certain attitudes" toward women and sex. That said, what actually leads men to thinking this way? And why do women allegedly not? And how does this necessarily pertain to prostitution?

In any case, what I find ironic is that, raised in a right-leaning, Catholic household, if my attitudes toward sex mirrored those of my parents, they would be quite meek. More to the point, the perspectives that value women as a means to an end, and that view sexual release as something necessary, desired, or owed came from a much more libertine, secular culture than the conservative one I came from. I find that interesting given the context in which sexual attitudes and "rape culture" are portrayed in contemporary discussion. And yet it is the backwards that is to blame for these alleged and problematic attitudes.

[Beet]

Traditionalists see women as a means to an end, they just add that for men, the sex they are owed should come from a virginal, 'chaste' woman, and the ends are having children as much as, or more than, the sex itself.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Traditionalists see women as a means to an end, they just add that for men, the sex they are owed should come from a virginal, 'chaste' woman, and the ends are having children as much as, or more than, the sex itself.

Thank you for telling me what my parents believe(d).

[Beet]

Traditionalists see women as a means to an end, they just add that for men, the sex they are owed should come from a virginal, 'chaste' woman, and the ends are having children as much as, or more than, the sex itself.

Thank you for telling me what my parents believe(d).

It wasn't aimed at your parents.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

In any case, the data shows that those men with greater *ahem* sexual prowess are more likely to be rapists, so simply be suspicious of the ethics of anyone you know with high "numbers".

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't necessarily disagree that many young men I know have "certain attitudes" toward women and sex. That said, what actually leads men to thinking this way? And why do women allegedly not? And how does this necessarily pertain to prostitution?

A combination of the subtle (and usually not even deliberate) comments that boys hear from adults around them from a young age, the much more explicit things that their start hearing in their (usually all-male) circles of friends around puberty, and the subtle but very deliberate cues that they get from the media (especially TV ads). All go into the direction of presenting sex with women as a commodity that men can get if they fulfill the right criteria (in terms of attractiveness, assertiveness, wealth, or you name it). If men don't have sex, they're either not "real" men or have failed by these arbitrary standards. At best, they're deserving of pity and support, to the point of (as the post I was responding to in the original thread suggested) designing public policy around their "needs". And of course, women aren't supposed to have any agency in the process.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

You know, despite what our contemporary postmodern aesthetics may indicate, sometimes the most obvious answer is, indeed, the correct one, as William of Ockham would know.

By stating this though, I do not wish to deny that humanity contains multitudes. Just that it is what it is.

[Del Tachi]

Sex is inherently more dangerous for women than it is for men.  Women are often physically smaller and weaker than their male partners, are at a higher risk of being assaulted by a sexual partner, and have the worry of pregnancy to consider.

Sex requires a lot more trust on the woman's part than it does the the man's, so to me it makes perfect sense that women would be less comfortable engaging in sex with complete strangers.