UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Omega21]

France and Germany Said to Warn EU Not to Let U.K. Claim Victory

1) Germany and France have privately warned the European Union to do more to prevent the U.K. from being able to claim victory in Brexit talks, according to EU diplomats

2) France wants UK to stick to EU’s environment standards, even if EU makes them stricter after Brexit + sign up to so-called level playing field restrictions in areas of labor law, state aid and taxation as well as a pledge to allow European fishing vessels access to British waters

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/france-and-germany-said-to-warn-eu-not-to-let-u-k-claim-victory

^^ France and Germany are really helping Theresa May sell her deal in the house of commons....

I wouldn't be too concerned about what Mr Macron has to say, even 75% of his own people don't support him anymore.

[Angel of Death]

This is too good not to post here:

[Rocky Rockefeller]

UK threatens to walk away from Interpol if ‘ex‑KGB agent’ Prokopchuk elected

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/uk-threatens-to-walk-away-from-interpol-if-exkgb-agent-prokopchuk-elected-w9z96zf0x

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1065021531812708353

^^ why not give Gibraltar back to Spain, just like we gave Hong Kong back to China, when will the imperial driven mindset in the UK establishment come to terms with the modern world,
It's unfortunate that Blair didn't hand Gibraltar back to Spain when he able to,

Do the people of Gibraltar want to go back to Spain?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Hong Kong was essentially forced back into China because a major part of it was only a lease that was due to expire and China was unlikely to renew it. While technically the core portion of Hong Kong could have remained in British hands, it would have been a major upheaval and at the time the West was still thinking that capitalism invariably leads to (classical) liberalism.

[Silent Hunter]

Also, the British would have been in no position to stop the Chinese from invading if they so wanted.

The people of Gibraltar and the Falklands want to remain British; are their views irrelevant?

[Silent Hunter]

The Malta referendum would have failed in many countries for insufficient turnout (as compared to the Falklands and Gibraltar votes which had massive turnout)... and the British promised independence anyway.

The local defence forces in the Falklands are much more capable than in 1982, the Argentine ones have stagnated and in any event, there is no appetite for any attack among the current government in Buenos Aires.

[Silent Hunter]

The Falklands are British territory, inhabited by British people, who were invaded by a military junta. Would you have let them stay under Argentine rule?

[Silent Hunter]

General Belgrano had planning an attack on the Task Force when it was called off due to bad weather, the Argentines had already been informed that the British considered themselves free to engage ships outside the Exclusion Zone and the Argentine Navy themselves have stated the sinking was justified.

Also, you've not answered my question.

[Silent Hunter]

What diplomatic solution would have been possible and acceptable apart from "Argentina leaves the Falklands"? The British had serious problems with the weather during that campaign and if they'd waited any longer, the Argentines would have had a full winter to build up their defences.

[Silent Hunter]

Certain people use diplomacy as a means to buy time. They never intend to actually reach a settlement or release their grip.

Remember Labour supported the recovery of those islands as well.

[Silent Hunter]

It's the principle of the thing. Not only "Britons, Britons never, never shall be slaves" but the principle that international disputes like that aren't settled by invading the place.

It's worth pointing out that the Falklands campaign is one of the few times when we've gone to war because British territory was actually attacked by a foreign power. Not the case with either World War, which more tied into the British desire never to let one power dominate mainland Europe lest it come after us for After Eights.

[Silent Hunter]

What would you have done differently?

[Lumine]

I would've sat around the table and talked with the Argentinean Leadership and tried my best to engage other south American nations in the diplomatic negotiations..

Now would it work?! I dunno, but at least I would've given a peaceful resolution a chance..

No offense, but that would have meant appeasing a brutal, aggressive military junta that clearly was not stopping with just the Falklands. If anything the Falklands War prevented an even bigger conflict had Argentina invaded Chile after  Falklands triumph, as it clearly intended to do.

[DaWN]

@simonjhix
I was in Bxl on 24 June 2016. By chance I had meetings with 2 Spanish MEPs that day: 1 PP & the 1 PSOE. Independently of each other, they both raised Brexit and predicted that “Spain will get Gibraltar back”, as no-one could now stop them closing the border, unlike in the 1980s

The parable of Gibraltar and Britain
Gibraltar could prove testing for Britain’s relationship with Spain during the forthcoming Brexit negotiations

https://www.economist.com/britain/2017/03/04/the-parable-of-gibraltar-and-britain

^^ UK Government should swallow its pride and hand back Gibraltar to Spain,
it will save us money and we can reverse the military cut in Plymouth and Portsmouth..

And the apparently insignificant matter of the 30,000 people who live there and don't want to be part of Spain?

[DaWN]

@simonjhix
I was in Bxl on 24 June 2016. By chance I had meetings with 2 Spanish MEPs that day: 1 PP & the 1 PSOE. Independently of each other, they both raised Brexit and predicted that “Spain will get Gibraltar back”, as no-one could now stop them closing the border, unlike in the 1980s

The parable of Gibraltar and Britain
Gibraltar could prove testing for Britain’s relationship with Spain during the forthcoming Brexit negotiations

https://www.economist.com/britain/2017/03/04/the-parable-of-gibraltar-and-britain

^^ UK Government should swallow its pride and hand back Gibraltar to Spain,
it will save us money and we can reverse the military cut in Plymouth and Portsmouth..

And the apparently insignificant matter of the 30,000 people who live there and don't want to be part of Spain?

They voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the EU

So did my local council. Doesn't mean that we want to become El Lambeth any time soon.

In 2002 Gibraltar voted 98% to retain complete British sovereignty. Even with what has happened since then I'd say that's pretty decisive and indicates there's a very large majority support for remaining part of Britain.

[Helsinkian]

They voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the EU

19,322 (95.9%) voted remain at a 83.5% turnout..

They voted even more overwhelmingly to reject Spanish sovereignty: 98.97% against it with 87.9% turnout.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

[DaWN]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

[DaWN]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

I don't see the evidence, how can you say that? because of a referendum conducted 16 years?!
people change their views when the circumstances change,

A 16 year old referendum is still a more reliable indicator of opinion than 'they might have changed their minds.' Sure, they might have done, but 98% support even 16 years ago doesn't bore that out as particularly likely.

[Helsinkian]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

I don't see the evidence, how can you say that? because of a referendum conducted 16 years?!
people change their views when the circumstances change,

If there were another referendum on Gibraltar sovereignty would you honestly bet for the Spain option winning?

Brighton and Hove also voted to remain in the EU. Do you think that means they prefer joining France and thus staying in the EU over staying in Brexit UK?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

I don't see the evidence, how can you say that? because of a referendum conducted 16 years?!
people change their views when the circumstances change,

A 16 year old referendum is still a more reliable indicator of opinion than 'they might have changed their minds.' Sure, they might have done, but 98% support even 16 years ago doesn't bore that out as particularly likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

[DaWN]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

I don't see the evidence, how can you say that? because of a referendum conducted 16 years?!
people change their views when the circumstances change,

A 16 year old referendum is still a more reliable indicator of opinion than 'they might have changed their minds.' Sure, they might have done, but 98% support even 16 years ago doesn't bore that out as particularly likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

What's that got to do with anything?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

I don't see the evidence, how can you say that? because of a referendum conducted 16 years?!
people change their views when the circumstances change,

A 16 year old referendum is still a more reliable indicator of opinion than 'they might have changed their minds.' Sure, they might have done, but 98% support even 16 years ago doesn't bore that out as particularly likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

What's that got to do with anything?

I was mainly backing up your arguments relating to the Falklands and to Gibraltar.

[DaWN]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

I don't see the evidence, how can you say that? because of a referendum conducted 16 years?!
people change their views when the circumstances change,

A 16 year old referendum is still a more reliable indicator of opinion than 'they might have changed their minds.' Sure, they might have done, but 98% support even 16 years ago doesn't bore that out as particularly likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

What's that got to do with anything?

I was mainly backing up your arguments relating to the Falklands and to Gibraltar.

Oh I see. Apologies.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

And anyway why should we be the ones to swallow our pride about it? Given the fairly obvious popular support for remaining part of the UK, it should be the Spanish who swallow their pride and accept they're not going to control every bit of land that they want. I'm no imperialist (to put it mildly) but it astonishes me how many people are willing to throw the self-determination of places like Gibraltar and the Falklands out the window for little more than posturing.

I don't see the evidence, how can you say that? because of a referendum conducted 16 years?!
people change their views when the circumstances change,

A 16 year old referendum is still a more reliable indicator of opinion than 'they might have changed their minds.' Sure, they might have done, but 98% support even 16 years ago doesn't bore that out as particularly likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

It's not related to Gibraltar,
but of course they would vote to remain part of the UK,
people vote with their wallet,
they gain subsidies and protection by being part of the UK,

It's like Moray in Scotland, an area with traditional SNP roots but voted no to Scottish independence by quite a margin as people feared the military bases might be lost...  

fact remains that Gibraltar has been British since 1713. Would they really join Spain just to stay in the EU, and give up a British identity in the process?

[Silent Hunter]

I've been to Gibraltar. Trust me, it's very British.