UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Canis]

 Former Lib Dems Leader Tim Farron Says It Is 'Inevitable' A New Centre Ground Party Will Form
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tim-farron_uk_5b5b7a09e4b0b15aba98d762?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_cs=BhcrQ7ZO5oVB69q7J4kT1A

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Kenneth Clarke is among the best Tory MPs. He's a principled parliamentarian. It would be better if the Tories were more like him in general.

[cp]

Sky Data poll: 78% think the government is doing a bad job on Brexit

The lede undersells this, actually. The data show what could be the start of a sea change in attitudes about leaving the EU in general and the Tory's haphazard methods of attempting to do so specifically.

[Antonio the Sixth]

That Field situation is shameful, yeah. Labour MPs should have freedom of conscience on EU issues. It's both the right thing to do and the politically smart thing to do.

[Lurker]

Why is local party members trying to remove Field "shameful" - or for that matter, why does there seem to be such a great taboo about deselecting MPs in the UK?


Should't they try to remove an MP if they feel he votes contrary to the country/party's interests?

[parochial boy]

Sky Data poll: 78% think the government is doing a bad job on Brexit

The lede undersells this, actually. The data show what could be the start of a sea change in attitudes about leaving the EU in general and the Tory's haphazard methods of attempting to do so specifically.

59-41 in favour of remain and 50-40 in favour of another referendum... If accurate then it starts to look as if the whole thing ends up being called off, and the UK rejoins the fold with tail firmly between its legs.

Having said that, a "poll of Sky customers" rings alarm bells, since no matter what weighting you do for the normal factors, "Sky customers" are a demographic group in and of themselves that won't necessarily be representative of the country as whole (although, I would have expected them to lean to the right - once controlling for everything else - of the country as a whole)

[cp]

Hmm, didn't see that the sample was Sky customers. That could definitely skew the figures into a particular direction, though I can't think of a reason to believe it would be pro-Remain rather than pro-Leave, or vice versa.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Why is local party members trying to remove Field "shameful" - or for that matter, why does there seem to be such a great taboo about deselecting MPs in the UK?


Should't they try to remove an MP if they feel he votes contrary to the country/party's interests?

Party membership in the UK is not as broad-based as it is in the US. Card-carrying Labour members in Field's constituency are a small minority of his actual electorate.

[Helsinkian]

Tommy Robinson has been freed from prison on appeal. There will be a re-trial.

[Hnv1]

https://twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/1024220891897647104?s=19

I hope Peace in Northern Ireland remains, but I really hope that Northern Ireland is no longer part of the United Kingdom.

When Ulster goes the UK is finished.

[Lord Halifax]

https://twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/1024220891897647104?s=19

I hope Peace in Northern Ireland remains, but I really hope that Northern Ireland is no longer part of the United Kingdom.

When Ulster goes the UK is finished.

There would still be two of the former kingdoms left: England and Scotland, and Wales is no longer part of England but very clearly defined as a separate entity. Going back to simply calling it the Kingdom of Great Britain would probably irritate the Scots as it makes Scotland a region rather than a country. The United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Wales would reflect the current status with extensive Scottish and Welsh autonomy better.

[Blair]

The united kingdom was established in 1707,
After the catastrophic consequences of the Darien Scheme to the Scottish Economy,

The Scots wanted to join a Union with the kingdom of England.
England liked the idea, England's were suspicios of French and Scottish alliance back then,
Hence, the kingdom of England and kingdom Scotland merged and become Kingdom of great Britain (after the Island of Great Britain), the Scottish parliament was dissolved and Scottish members were to serve in the English parliament (UK parliament).
Wales for a long time was considered part of England, Wales means a "Foreigner" in the old English language, for centuries the English establishment tried to surpress the Welsh language and they succeeded in the eastern parts of Wales.

70% of people in NI support legalising abortion, and 68% support gay marriage. Don’t confuse the vocal minority of DUP with NI at large.

[Hnv1]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country...  
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country...  
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

[DavidB.]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

[DavidB.]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

Whether an identity is "imagined" or not is not something I want to be the arbiter of. To me, the term British here seems to indicate a sense of connection and belonging to the UK. Whether or not their identity and culture is at odds with current inhabitants of the British island (which it probably is, and obviously Ulster protestant culture and identity are highly influenced by them being in Ireland) therefore does not seem overly relevant to me. And their ancestors come from the island of Britain anyway.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country...  
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

Whether an identity is "imagined" or not is not something I want to be the arbiter of. To me, the term British here seems to indicate a sense of connection and belonging to the UK. Whether or not their identity and culture is at odds with current inhabitants of the British island (which it probably is, and obviously Ulster protestant culture and identity are highly influenced by them being in Ireland) therefore does not seem overly relevant to me. And their ancestors come from the island of Britain anyway.

All national identities are imagined communities as Benedict Andersson pointed out.

Identity is a two way street. In order to belong to a group you need both to identify with it and they need to accept you as one of their own. If the second requirement isn't fulfilled you are just a wannabe. Like a white guy wanting to be Japanese or Native American. Ulster protestans could easily end up being wannabe Brits if enough people on the mainland reject them.

[Lord Halifax]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country...  
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

part of 'your' country...The UK does not belong to English people. They are everybit as British as your white van Essex Man, one might even claim they are more than him.

If you aren't living in Britain you clearly aren't as British as the people actually living there, no matter how you identify.

This seems overly semantic, as the term British here clearly seems to indicate "UKish" rather than a geographical connection to the island of Great Britain. I fully agree with hnv1 here.

The Ulster Protestant identity was developed in Ireland and is for better or worse (mostly the latter) an Irish identity, a particular Irish version of imagined Britishness that is now at odds with modern British identity and culture as practiced by actual Britons. Even Ian Paisley agreed that he was "an Irish man", a product of Ireland.

Whether an identity is "imagined" or not is not something I want to be the arbiter of. To me, the term British here seems to indicate a sense of connection and belonging to the UK. Whether or not their identity and culture is at odds with current inhabitants of the British island (which it probably is, and obviously Ulster protestant culture and identity are highly influenced by them being in Ireland) therefore does not seem overly relevant to me. And their ancestors come from the island of Britain anyway.

All national identities are imagined communities as Benedict Andersson pointed out.

Identity is a two way street. In order to belong to a group you need both to identify with it and they need to accept you as one of their own. If the second requirement isn't fulfilled you are just a wannabe. Like a white guy wanting to be Japanese or Native American. Ulster protestans could easily end up being wannabe Brits if enough people on the mainland start thinking like Audrey.

Hahaha thinking like Audrey, good one mate,
I have nothing against the people of Ulster, I just don't like their views on abortion and gay marriage..

I don't consider myself British.... I'm English, I was born in England, raised in England, when I travel abroad and people ask me where I'm from I always say I'm from England
I'm indifferent with the term "British"

I couldn't care less if people in Ulster indentify as Irish, British or whatever.. it's non of my bloody business eh ....

Okay, I will remove the reference to you then, but my point still stands.

[Slow Learner]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

If you pulled your head from your arse you'd find that massive majorities in Northern Ireland are in favour of abortion and LGBTQ+ rights. And while true the DUP are horrendous, you'll find plenty agreeing with them on the backbenches of the Conservative Party.

EDIT: Furthermore, I believe the only parties in the assembly still willing to block equal marriage are the DUP and TUV, which, erm, wouldn't be enough.

[Slow Learner]

The partition of Ireland, was a terrible mistake,
We paid the price in England for decades and we are still paying the price, more funding per head on Ulster then most towns and cities across England,
We are stuck with people that oppose Marriage equility, womans Right, and do not believe in our liberal values.
Most English people are sympathetic toward a united Ireland, it's Ulster-Scots that want to be part of our Country... 
But with demographic changes and Catholics becoming a majority it will happen...

If you pulled your head from your arse you'd find that massive majorities in Northern Ireland are in favour of abortion and LGBTQ+ rights. And while true the DUP are horrendous, you'll find plenty agreeing with them on the backbenches of the Conservative Party.

EDIT: Furthermore, I believe the only parties in the assembly still willing to block equal marriage are the DUP and TUV, which, erm, wouldn't be enough.

Wow such a charming man aren't ya... but that's ok, I learnt in atlas the more rude and disrespectful you are the more popular you are....

I'm aware according to the opinion polls gay marriage is widely popular in northern, but I'm also aware people keep voting for parties that oppose those rights ...

Well if we're being honest here it's just the one party, which, may I add, only got about 36% of the vote.

[Tintrlvr]

Marriage equality is one part of problem, women's right?
The ridiculous language dispute, I just don't get why the DUP and unionists are so against it, in Scotland Gaelic is recognised, in Wales Welsh is recognised,
even in counties like Cornwall, the Cornish council are putting efforts to revive the language,
I always thought learning more than one language is a beautiful thing, and languages tell a lot about the history of the people.

English is a Germanic language imported from northern Germany and Friesland influenced by Latin, french and old Norse.
It's spoken differently in different parts of England,
For instance in the north east, geordie and Northumbrian accents sound a lot like Danish,
The famous Robson green "was named in the Northeast tradition of naming the first son after family surnames"
It's a tradition imported from the Danes, and most Danelaw settlers, settled in the north and eastern parts of England.

I just don't get some members of unionist community in northern Ireland, how can anyone deprive any community from their language or identity....

I mean, the reasoning is pretty clear: We want you to feel unwelcome and uncomfortable to the point where you leave, prolonging the Protestant and unionist majority in Northern Ireland. Similar, in a sense to Israel's perpetual squeezing of the Palestinians.

[Silent Hunter]

Guido may be a gossip-monger, but he occasionally strikes paydirt.

[LabourJersey]

https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1026050682103590913?s=19

^^ Couldn't be more true...

While this is true, is there really that much interest in moving the capital?

I think people would like it in the abstract, but moving the govt apparatus to Manchester or York or where-ever would be expensive and time consuming and thus unpopular

[Angel of Death]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I see they're early with laying the groundwork for the inevitable "stab-in-the-back" myth after Brexit devastates the British economy. And then, the very resentment that led people to vote for it in the first place will only be multiplied many times over and be, ironically, aimed at exactly those who were trying to minimize the damage, to say nothing of the EU and foreigners in general (hence also the imminent UKIP comeback, or whatever replaces it).

Funny enough, next year is also the 100th anniversary of the Treaty of Versailles.