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Author Topic: France General Discussion III: Tout doit disparaître  (Read 26147 times)
parochial boy
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« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 09:23:36 am »

Centre-Left president Emmanuel Macron's Centre-Left Prime Minister Édouard Philippe is announcing a bunch of policies at the moment, including cutting spending by 3% of GDP and cutting the national tax burden by 1% of GDP.

The good news is that any reforms to the ISF have been put off until 2019 at least.
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Tirnam
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« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2017, 11:56:56 am »

Confidence vote on the Prime minister's speech

For: 370
Against: 67
Abstain: 129
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« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2017, 12:02:24 pm »

Centre-Left president Emmanuel Macron's Centre-Left Prime Minister Édouard Philippe is announcing a bunch of policies at the moment, including cutting spending by 3% of GDP and cutting the national tax burden by 1% of GDP.

The good news is that any reforms to the ISF have been put off until 2019 at least.

disgusting
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« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2017, 12:31:23 pm »

Vote by group

LR
For: 1
Against: 23
Abstain: 75

Constructifs (LR-UDI)
For: 12
Abstain: 23

Nouvelle Gauche (PS)
For: 3
Against: 5
Abstain: 23
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« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 12:45:14 pm »

Also lol at the typical bargain basement populist "what if we just cut the number of MP's!!!".

God I hate that refrain. Hate Hate Hate Hate HATE. I'd vote against the whole proposal even if I agreed with everything else.
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Antonio V
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« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2017, 12:47:21 pm »

Nouvelle Gauche (PS)
For: 3
Against: 5
Abstain: 23

F**king useless. Hamon was right to leave.
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Tirnam
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« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2017, 01:16:40 pm »

Also lol at the typical bargain basement populist "what if we just cut the number of MP's!!!".

God I hate that refrain. Hate Hate Hate Hate HATE. I'd vote against the whole proposal even if I agreed with everything else.

I'm also against this, but the idea is not "if we cut 100 MPs we will save 2 millions per year" but to reduce the number of MPs and to keep the same budget to give more power to the MPs (to hire more assistants, etc.)
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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2017, 01:26:25 pm »

Also lol at the typical bargain basement populist "what if we just cut the number of MP's!!!".

God I hate that refrain. Hate Hate Hate Hate HATE. I'd vote against the whole proposal even if I agreed with everything else.

I'm also against this, but the idea is not "if we cut 100 MPs we will save 2 millions per year" but to reduce the number of MPs and to keep the same budget to give more power to the MPs (to hire more assistants, etc.)

The don't need to give "more power" to individual MPs. If anything we need to give less power to individual MPs while increasing the power of the parliament as a collective. And more importantly, guaranteeing meaningful representation by not having MPs be elected in giant constituencies.

If you really want to cut the number of MPs, just abolish the Senate for f**k's sake.
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"In the end, the world we live in is in darkness."
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« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2017, 02:18:04 pm »

Also lol at the typical bargain basement populist "what if we just cut the number of MP's!!!".

God I hate that refrain. Hate Hate Hate Hate HATE. I'd vote against the whole proposal even if I agreed with everything else.

I'm also against this, but the idea is not "if we cut 100 MPs we will save 2 millions per year" but to reduce the number of MPs and to keep the same budget to give more power to the MPs (to hire more assistants, etc.)

The don't need to give "more power" to individual MPs. If anything we need to give less power to individual MPs while increasing the power of the parliament as a collective. And more importantly, guaranteeing meaningful representation by not having MPs be elected in giant constituencies.

If you really want to cut the number of MPs, just abolish the Senate for f**k's sake.

Heh. the French Senate is basically one big rotten borough, isn't it?
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mvd10
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« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2017, 02:18:16 pm »

Centre-Left president Emmanuel Macron's Centre-Left Prime Minister Édouard Philippe is announcing a bunch of policies at the moment, including cutting spending by 3% of GDP and cutting the national tax burden by 1% of GDP.

The good news is that any reforms to the ISF have been put off until 2019 at least.

3%? Isn't that 75 billion? That's more than what Macron promised during the campaign. It keeps getting better Smiley!
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Tirnam
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« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2017, 03:47:09 pm »

Also lol at the typical bargain basement populist "what if we just cut the number of MP's!!!".

God I hate that refrain. Hate Hate Hate Hate HATE. I'd vote against the whole proposal even if I agreed with everything else.

I'm also against this, but the idea is not "if we cut 100 MPs we will save 2 millions per year" but to reduce the number of MPs and to keep the same budget to give more power to the MPs (to hire more assistants, etc.)

The don't need to give "more power" to individual MPs. If anything we need to give less power to individual MPs while increasing the power of the parliament as a collective. And more importantly, guaranteeing meaningful representation by not having MPs be elected in giant constituencies.

If you really want to cut the number of MPs, just abolish the Senate for f**k's sake.

You can give all the powers you want to the Parliament but if you don't give to each MP the ability to effectively use these powers the Parliament will remain what it is today.
The French Parliament isn't powerless but it suffered until now of MPs not fully committed to their mandate. Let's hope that will change with the end of dual mandates.
To give to each MP more ability to form a team of qualified assistants for example, can't hurt the Parliament if that means that the MP will be able to perform a better work in all of his missions.

I would have prefer to keep the actual number of MPs and simply increase the budget, but that's not really possible now in France.

As for this proportional representation dose, with the French electoral system that will probably be a mess, for just a symbolic results.
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Lumine
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« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2017, 04:45:49 pm »

Go Macron! I'm actually pleasantly surprised with him thus far.
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Leftbehind
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« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2017, 06:23:03 pm »

Nouvelle Gauche (PS)
For: 3
Against: 5
Abstain: 23

F**king useless. Hamon was right to leave.

Can you flesh out Hamon's motivations, and what state the PS is in, ideologically? I must say that vote is at odds with how I expected the current PS to act (mainly informed by electing Hamon as their leader).
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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2017, 07:05:45 pm »

Also lol at the typical bargain basement populist "what if we just cut the number of MP's!!!".

God I hate that refrain. Hate Hate Hate Hate HATE. I'd vote against the whole proposal even if I agreed with everything else.

I'm also against this, but the idea is not "if we cut 100 MPs we will save 2 millions per year" but to reduce the number of MPs and to keep the same budget to give more power to the MPs (to hire more assistants, etc.)

The don't need to give "more power" to individual MPs. If anything we need to give less power to individual MPs while increasing the power of the parliament as a collective. And more importantly, guaranteeing meaningful representation by not having MPs be elected in giant constituencies.

If you really want to cut the number of MPs, just abolish the Senate for f**k's sake.

You can give all the powers you want to the Parliament but if you don't give to each MP the ability to effectively use these powers the Parliament will remain what it is today.
The French Parliament isn't powerless but it suffered until now of MPs not fully committed to their mandate. Let's hope that will change with the end of dual mandates.
To give to each MP more ability to form a team of qualified assistants for example, can't hurt the Parliament if that means that the MP will be able to perform a better work in all of his missions.

I would have prefer to keep the actual number of MPs and simply increase the budget, but that's not really possible now in France.

As for this proportional representation dose, with the French electoral system that will probably be a mess, for just a symbolic results.

Oh come on, don't tell me MPs don't have enough resources to do their job well if they wanted to. A few of them have been doing admirable work actually (René Dosière, Gérard Bapt). It's just that most of them don't give a sh*t about their job besides rubber-stamping what their leaders want to pass. And that sure won't be helped now that FBM has completely personalized French politics and 350 MPs owe their political future to him alone.
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"In the end, the world we live in is in darkness."
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Antonio V
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« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2017, 07:10:11 pm »

Nouvelle Gauche (PS)
For: 3
Against: 5
Abstain: 23

F**king useless. Hamon was right to leave.

Can you flesh out Hamon's motivations, and what state the PS is in, ideologically? I must say that vote is at odds with how I expected the current PS to act (mainly informed by electing Hamon as their leader).

Hamon is from the PS' left, unlike most of the MPs that were reelected last month. He opposed all of Hollande's right-wing legislation and resigned the government when it became clear he was going to go full supply-side. His campaign was centered around UBI, shortening the workweek, tackling workplace stress, taxing the rich, and radical measures against climate change. It's clear now that the PS will never provide an effective platform for these ideas.
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"In the end, the world we live in is in darkness."
"That's why... we seek the light."

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Tirnam
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« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2017, 03:55:09 am »

Also lol at the typical bargain basement populist "what if we just cut the number of MP's!!!".

God I hate that refrain. Hate Hate Hate Hate HATE. I'd vote against the whole proposal even if I agreed with everything else.

I'm also against this, but the idea is not "if we cut 100 MPs we will save 2 millions per year" but to reduce the number of MPs and to keep the same budget to give more power to the MPs (to hire more assistants, etc.)

The don't need to give "more power" to individual MPs. If anything we need to give less power to individual MPs while increasing the power of the parliament as a collective. And more importantly, guaranteeing meaningful representation by not having MPs be elected in giant constituencies.

If you really want to cut the number of MPs, just abolish the Senate for f**k's sake.

You can give all the powers you want to the Parliament but if you don't give to each MP the ability to effectively use these powers the Parliament will remain what it is today.
The French Parliament isn't powerless but it suffered until now of MPs not fully committed to their mandate. Let's hope that will change with the end of dual mandates.
To give to each MP more ability to form a team of qualified assistants for example, can't hurt the Parliament if that means that the MP will be able to perform a better work in all of his missions.

I would have prefer to keep the actual number of MPs and simply increase the budget, but that's not really possible now in France.

As for this proportional representation dose, with the French electoral system that will probably be a mess, for just a symbolic results.

Oh come on, don't tell me MPs don't have enough resources to do their job well if they wanted to. A few of them have been doing admirable work actually (René Dosière, Gérard Bapt). It's just that most of them don't give a sh*t about their job besides rubber-stamping what their leaders want to pass. And that sure won't be helped now that FBM has completely personalized French politics and 350 MPs owe their political future to him alone.

A French député has only less than €10,000 to pay their assistants, a German MP has more than €20,000, a British MP around €15,000. You named René Dosière, a very good MP indeed, when the Fillon's scandal broke he said that he had to pay his assistants on his personal budget for the parliamentary expenses, because with €10,000 he couldn't hire a good team of assistants.
You're right when you say that most of MPs don't (or didn't, we can't judge yet for the new MPs) care about the Parliament but in my view it was because many of them had one, or several, local mandate.
And basically, since the beginning of the Vth Republic (and it's more obvious since 2002), any legislative majority is build around (or against) the President, not just with Macron but it was already the case with De Gaule, Mitterrand, ... And unfortunately any proportional representation will confirm that.
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Tirnam
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« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2017, 04:27:23 am »

Simone Veil will be buried at the Panthéon with her husband.
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« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2017, 07:10:29 am »

Time to pull the plug on PS, just as it was done with SFIO.
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kelestian
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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2017, 10:18:30 am »

Wow, this Macron-submarine thing is so similar to young Putin, when he flew by military jet to Chechnya
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2017, 11:43:18 pm »

Wow, this Macron-submarine thing is so similar to young Putin, when he flew by military jet to Chechnya
Are you saying Macron is Putin and Hollande is Yeltsin?

I guess to continue that comparison, Le Pen is Zhirinovsky.
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kelestian
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« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2017, 05:05:02 am »

Wow, this Macron-submarine thing is so similar to young Putin, when he flew by military jet to Chechnya
Are you saying Macron is Putin and Hollande is Yeltsin?

I guess to continue that comparison, Le Pen is Zhirinovsky.

I'm not saying Macron is Putin, but young Putin with his "strong but liberal person who unifies Russian society" image had some similarities.

Zhirinovsky no way is Le Pen, maybe Zyuganov
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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2017, 08:24:18 am »

Nouvelle Gauche (PS)
For: 3
Against: 5
Abstain: 23

F**king useless. Hamon was right to leave.

Can you flesh out Hamon's motivations, and what state the PS is in, ideologically? I must say that vote is at odds with how I expected the current PS to act (mainly informed by electing Hamon as their leader).

Hamon is from the PS' left, unlike most of the MPs that were reelected last month. He opposed all of Hollande's right-wing legislation and resigned the government when it became clear he was going to go full supply-side. His campaign was centered around UBI, shortening the workweek, tackling workplace stress, taxing the rich, and radical measures against climate change. It's clear now that the PS will never provide an effective platform for these ideas.

Thanks, I wasn't too far off, just didn't realise the political collapse had hurt the parliamentary PS left more than the right. What do you think of the prospects for his new party? I wonder (no doubt wishful thinking) if it might counter-intuitively allow for/force more cooperation on the Left since they're so disunited that they'll never get in the second round unless voters rally around one.
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2017, 11:54:20 am »

Nouvelle Gauche (PS)
For: 3
Against: 5
Abstain: 23

F**king useless. Hamon was right to leave.

Can you flesh out Hamon's motivations, and what state the PS is in, ideologically? I must say that vote is at odds with how I expected the current PS to act (mainly informed by electing Hamon as their leader).

Hamon is from the PS' left, unlike most of the MPs that were reelected last month. He opposed all of Hollande's right-wing legislation and resigned the government when it became clear he was going to go full supply-side. His campaign was centered around UBI, shortening the workweek, tackling workplace stress, taxing the rich, and radical measures against climate change. It's clear now that the PS will never provide an effective platform for these ideas.

Thanks, I wasn't too far off, just didn't realise the political collapse had hurt the parliamentary PS left more than the right. What do you think of the prospects for his new party? I wonder (no doubt wishful thinking) if it might counter-intuitively allow for/force more cooperation on the Left since they're so disunited that they'll never get in the second round unless voters rally around one.

I don't have very high hopes for his movement (or the non-FI French left in general) right now, but I try to keep up some hope. Hopefully he ends up as an ally and potentially a voice of sanity within a broader left alliance, but it's a long way to there.
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"In the end, the world we live in is in darkness."
"That's why... we seek the light."

Noir, episode 26
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2017, 01:52:43 pm »

My governing party sucks so much I'd gladly take someone like Macron over them anytime.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2017, 04:26:39 pm »

Nouvelle Gauche (PS)
For: 3
Against: 5
Abstain: 23

F**king useless. Hamon was right to leave.

Can you flesh out Hamon's motivations, and what state the PS is in, ideologically? I must say that vote is at odds with how I expected the current PS to act (mainly informed by electing Hamon as their leader).

Hamon is from the PS' left, unlike most of the MPs that were reelected last month. He opposed all of Hollande's right-wing legislation and resigned the government when it became clear he was going to go full supply-side. His campaign was centered around UBI, shortening the workweek, tackling workplace stress, taxing the rich, and radical measures against climate change. It's clear now that the PS will never provide an effective platform for these ideas.

Thanks, I wasn't too far off, just didn't realise the political collapse had hurt the parliamentary PS left more than the right. What do you think of the prospects for his new party? I wonder (no doubt wishful thinking) if it might counter-intuitively allow for/force more cooperation on the Left since they're so disunited that they'll never get in the second round unless voters rally around one.

I don't have very high hopes for his movement (or the non-FI French left in general) right now, but I try to keep up some hope. Hopefully he ends up as an ally and potentially a voice of sanity within a broader left alliance, but it's a long way to there.

I wouldn't worry, the left in France has been in this sort of situation multiple times in the past (1969, 1993...), fundamentally there are just too many left wing people in the country.

That and people are unlikely to appreciate Macron making them poorer
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