Germany Legalizes Gay Marriage (June 30, 2017)

[Tender Branson]

Gay marriage vote currently underway in the German parliament.

Merkel just cast a red NO vote.

Votes being counted now. Takes about 10 minutes.

[Tender Branson]

393/623 voted Yes.

[Tender Branson]

226 No votes

4 abstentions and 7 not present.

[Tender Branson]

Merkel casts her NO vote:



HPs.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Merkel casts her NO vote:



HPs.

LOL, she calls for a vote after finally meeting some gays, and then still votes no? What a moderate hero.

[Tender Branson]

Preliminary, it looks like some 80 of the 309 member CDU/CSU delegation voted YES.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Merkel keeps being a worthless moderate hero.

[Tender Branson]

Vote by party:



Abwesend = Not present
Enthalten = Abstained
Fraktionslos = 1 former CDU member who's now Independent

---

25% of the 301 CDU/CSU members + 1 Indy who voted, voted for gay marriage.

24% of the total elected CDU/CSU delegation (310) voted for it.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Ironically, three of Merkel's most closest allies in the CDU voted for legalizing gay marriage:

Defence minister Ursula von der Leyen, Chief of Staff of the Chancellery Peter Altmaier, and CDU secretary general Peter Tauber.

In the past, there were unconfirmed rumours that Altmaier himself is a closeted gay though.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Yes and No votes broken up between CDU and CSU. Yes vote among CDU deputies was 27%, among CSU deputies 13%:


CDU
Yes 68
No 179
Abstain 4
Not present 4

CSU
Yes 7
No 46
Abstain 1
Not present 2

[Middle-aged Europe]

Breakdown of Merkel's cabinet:

CDU ministers - Three voted no, two voted yes, one isn't a member of parliament
CSU ministers - All three voted no
SPD ministers - Five voted yes, one isn't a member of parliament

Among the CDU ministers, the "no" votes were interior minister Thomas de Maiziére, finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble, and health minister Hermann Gröhe. "Yes" votes were defence minister Ursula von der Leyen, and head of the chancellery Peter Altmaier.

[Middle-aged Europe]

New polls in both Germany and Austria show massive support for gay marriage:

Germany

By party:

CDU/CSU: 73-22 support
SPD: 87-11 support
Greens: 93-5 support
Left: 84-15 support
AfD: 40-55 oppose (odd, because their frontrunner Alice Weidel is lesbian)
FDP: not asked

Alice Weidel is the lead candidate of a party who specifically denounces "attempts to abolish the classic family model" and demands that the government shall promote the idea of a family consisting of a father, a mother, and their children in its election platform, while at the same time Weidel herself raises two children together with her female partner. Go figure.

The AfD's base probably tolerates Weidel because they accept the necessity to have a lead candidate who makes them look less like Nazis.

[Famous Mortimer]

Who are the SPD and Left Party members who abstained?

[Tender Branson]

Who are the SPD and Left Party members who abstained?

They were not present in parliament.

Abstain means being present, but not vote.

These 2 representatives don't necessarily have to be against gay marriage just because they were not present. They could also be sick today and stayed home.

[Anzeigenhauptmeister]

Former constitutional judge Hans-Jürgen Papier considers gay marriage unconstitutional, as at the times of the passage of the Grundgesetz homosexuality was indictable. Moreover, former adjudgments by the Constitutional Court always saw marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ehe-fuer-alle-ex-verfassungsrichter-hans-juergen-papier-haelt-sie-fuer-verfassungswidrig-a-1155215.html (in German)

[Tender Branson]

Yes and No votes broken up between CDU and CSU. Yes vote among CDU deputies was 27%, among CSU deputies 13%.

This is worrying when it comes to how the ÖVP representatives would vote on this issue here, because I guess the ÖVP would probably vote closer to the CSU than the CDU.

In fact, 16% of ÖVP delegates would have to vote Yes in an open, free vote for a majority together with SPÖ+Greens+NEOS.

Also, SPÖ+Greens+NEOS welcomed the German vote today while FPÖ and Team Stronach said it is "a vote we have to accept" but there are "much more important issues facing Austria right now".

The reaction of the ÖVP on the German vote was particularly cowardly: "We don't comment on the German election campaign".

Yesterday, when all ÖVP-MPs voted against gay marriage in parliament and looked down on their smartphones and tablets (when a NEOS-MP spoke directly to them and accused them of being cowards without a conscience), they also argued that "the Constitutional Court has to decide this issue".

[Middle-aged Europe]

Former constitutional judge Hans-Jürgen Papier considers gay marriage unconstitutional, as at the times of the passage of the Grundgesetz homosexuality was indictable. Moreover, former adjudgments by the Constitutional Court always saw marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ehe-fuer-alle-ex-verfassungsrichter-hans-juergen-papier-haelt-sie-fuer-verfassungswidrig-a-1155215.html (in German)

Papier (CSU) doesn't break ranks with his party. News at 11.

[Anzeigenhauptmeister]

Former constitutional judge Hans-Jürgen Papier considers gay marriage unconstitutional, as at the times of the passage of the Grundgesetz homosexuality was indictable. Moreover, former adjudgments by the Constitutional Court always saw marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ehe-fuer-alle-ex-verfassungsrichter-hans-juergen-papier-haelt-sie-fuer-verfassungswidrig-a-1155215.html (in German)

Papier (CSU) doesn't break ranks with his party. News at 11.

I know. IMHO, the gay marriage act is completely compatible with our constitution, as it does not define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. But there is a low but potential risk that some conservative judges may exploit their position in order to retain their "silverware".

[libertpaulian]

Hey, Australia, looks like you're being left behind in the dust, again.

[vanguard96]

Is Angela Merkel still the world leader Hillary Clinton and Bill Weld admire?

[Anzeigenhauptmeister]

Wasn't Hillary Clinton against marriage equality until it become popular?

[mvd10]

Wasn't Hillary Clinton against marriage equality until it become popular?

Marriage equality is popular in Germany and Merkel still opposes it. Does anyone have an opinion poll on how CSU voters feel about gay marriage? All the polls I saw only show CDU or CDU/CSU.

[Middle-aged Europe]

^^ I don't think so. It would be highly unusual to poll CSU voters separately.

Anyway, I think its fair to say that the CDU/CSU's voters are more liberal than the CDU/CSU party members or their MPs. So, Angela Merkel is probably more in line with her voters than with her party.

It also seems likely that she voted against gay marriage so that she didn't have to vote against the majority of her own party's MPs.

[Tender Branson]

Wasn't Hillary Clinton against marriage equality until it become popular?

Marriage equality is popular in Germany and Merkel still opposes it. Does anyone have an opinion poll on how CSU voters feel about gay marriage? All the polls I saw only show CDU or CDU/CSU.

All the polls only show CDU/CSU results.

The last poll I found that shows results for CDU and CSU individually is from March 2013 (!):

In this poll, CSU-voters backed gay marriage by a 52-40 margin. CDU-voters backed it with 55-41. And all German voters backed it by a 66-30 margin at that time.

http://www.t-online.de/regionales/id_62483324/homo-ehe-gleichstellung-von-mehrheit-der-csu-anhaenger-bejaht.html

[Tender Branson]

BTW:

Does anyone have an age-breakdown of MPs from the CDU/CSU that voted in favour and against ? I would assume that the ones who voted YES tend to be younger than the ones voting against.