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Author Topic: Why do you believe (or not believe)... whatever you believe?  (Read 996 times)
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tmcusa2
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« on: July 08, 2017, 05:37:28 pm »
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I have heard many of you say what you believe, but I would like to know why.

Do you base your belief on anything of substance? Can you prove that what you believe is true? Can you make a good argument for believing as you do? Can or would you like to convince others to believe the same way? I see many politic arguments; how about some philosophical or religious arguments?

On the flip side, do have any comment (arguments) why the beliefs of others are contrary to your own ethics or logical thinking?
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 06:20:37 pm »
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I am a Christian principally because I believe that Christianity is true - the cornerstone event of Christianity upon which the religion is based is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.  I believe that the historical case for this is very strong and that the testimony of the apostles is credible.

Here is an excellent video which can explain these points far better than myself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN2EKL7E2Vg

There is also the personal evidence of my personal relationship with Jesus through prayer and studying the Word, though I think it's important to underline that for me, my faith begins with historical truth, that is the truth of the New Testament in both the events that occurred and its theology.
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tmcusa2
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 08:25:07 pm »
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Thanks for the response. I have often thought (although I call myself an atheist), that I get a similar benefit from meditation (non-theistic Buddhism appeals to me, at least in some small ways, I don't have to believe in the specifics and I certainly don't call myself a Buddhist) as theists get from prayer.

For me, Buddhist meditation appeals to me the same way that the fictional Vulcan meditation does.

Certainly, to play the "devil's" advocate (ironically meaning the "creator's advocate", in my case) if this creator does exist s/he can find me in meditation, so I haven't closed either my mind or heart to a creator. Although, I believe that I don't need to believe in a creator, nor do I see any other reason to believe in a creator and always use the Apostle Thomas as my argument for skepticism.

If this creator created humans in his/her image we humans ironically do not need to believe in such a creator because we already have what we need, we are already all right the way we are, we have the power to love what we will and think for ourselves. Of course, being skeptical means having an open mind, as well. If I say "I believe that I can work out my own problems without any help from anyone", I can doubt that statement itself as much as I can doubt anything else.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 08:31:12 pm by 3D X 31 »Logged

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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2017, 10:15:15 am »
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I'm an atheist because I used to be a Christian. There was never anything 'there' when I prayed. I felt that at 7. I felt that at 17. Prayer was so empty. I found, even when I did pray, it unhelpful. As a 7 year old I used to peek at everyone else and think I was doing it wrong. Never felt anything and felt that it did nothing either for me or as an 'effect' on people or issues outside of me. Got into an Aspergers obsessive routine to try and 'get' it as a result that took a decade to overcome. Even joined the choir to approach it at a different musically 'transcendent' level.
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 05:52:03 pm »
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I'm an atheist because I used to be a Christian. There was never anything 'there' when I prayed. I felt that at 7. I felt that at 17. Prayer was so empty. I found, even when I did pray, it unhelpful. As a 7 year old I used to peek at everyone else and think I was doing it wrong. Never felt anything and felt that it did nothing either for me or as an 'effect' on people or issues outside of me. Got into an Aspergers obsessive routine to try and 'get' it as a result that took a decade to overcome. Even joined the choir to approach it at a different musically 'transcendent' level.
I think that this may be an experience that you have in common with many others.
It's a shame that so much time is wasted on such a futile attempt to conform to the conditioning of our youth.
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 02:18:23 am »
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At my core beliefs, I believe in what I call the Divine, that force, spirit, deity, thingamajig, etc., that provides us with free will and keeps us from being trapped in a meaningless deterministic universe. As a Universalist I believe that the Divine tries to provide us with guidance, if we will but listen to it. As a Daoist I believe that the philosophy embodied in the Dao is an excellent summary of that guidance. As a Christian I believe that one of those ways the Divine tried to guide us was through the example of Christ Jesus, a living embodiment of the Way, who is both fully Human and fully Divine, tho I am agnostic on the issues of the virgin birth and the trinity. I'm Adoptionist in my theology as I believe that Jesus could not have been fully connected to his Divine nature prior to his resurrection as it would render the whole crucifixion into a farce if he had been.
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2017, 12:13:34 pm »
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"I believe that the Divine tries to provide us with guidance, if we will but listen to it."

I think that can be accomplished by meditation. Meditation isn't theism, but it can lead a person to see things as they really are. It can lead to a more objective view of reality as it is. That still small voice or what Quakers call the inner light can be part of meditation.
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2017, 03:18:29 pm »
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I'm Adoptionist in my theology as I believe that Jesus could not have been fully connected to his Divine nature prior to his resurrection as it would render the whole crucifixion into a farce if he had been.

I agree that there's no other way to reconcile the spiritual relevance of crucifixion without adoptionism.
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 08:40:38 pm »
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I'm Adoptionist in my theology as I believe that Jesus could not have been fully connected to his Divine nature prior to his resurrection as it would render the whole crucifixion into a farce if he had been.

I agree that there's no other way to reconcile the spiritual relevance of crucifixion without adoptionism.

The Son of Man* is always interesting to me. It was said that the Son of Man, a divine man, would do as Jesus did. Adoptionism can be called into question by how Jesus was referenced by the prophecies that foretold of him.

*The title confirming his divinity, whereas "The Son of God" confirm his humanity
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 03:12:02 pm »
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Overwhelming evidence, both experiential, anecdotal, and factual, helps make the "leap of faith" more like a step.
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 05:58:56 pm »
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Religion is human centric while science shows that the universe is not human centric. Religion results from the inability of people to deal with life and death. I think religion has had many positive impacts in terms of morality and community but I have no faith. I do occasionally pray but in the way that someone else might have a lucky rabbits foot or something I don't actually believe a diety is listening.
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 12:33:38 am »
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Simple:

I don't see what the point of just being born of nothing is, I don't see the point of non-sentient atoms somehow making sentience.

I do not see the point of living life as if it were inherently meaningless and being forced to either end up like Rick Sanchez or try to make everything mean a little bit in the moment. Either of these outcomes still reads like the old "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow, we die", which ends up being...empty.

Now something out there who put everything that could be learned to use, to make these quarks and atoms sentient, to have his children become like him with all he knows and lay out a plan, that adds more to it.

I can't get behind any random deity that mostly acts like a superpowered man, it has to be something transcendent and for all practical purposes, omniscient and benevolent in intent. And I can't get behind a God who sent us here / created us just cause and wants us with him just to be there. If there's gonna be a benevolent God, s/he should want us to become our best in every last way. So far, only the Abrahamic God of the Mormon kind comes even close to these criteria, but I do have a bit of a Daoistic/Agnostic bend going on.

And as for prayer, that feeling is there sometimes, and sometimes it isn't until an infuriatingly later time. And sometimes that answer comes late simply because there's no way I would've understood what was trying to be said immediately.

Doesn't mean I don't meditate, but I use that more as a way to clear my head and detach momentarily rather than to actually get an answer.

I do know that all that misfortune that happened last year (to me or people or things I cared about), often quite specifically after I prayed for the best outcome had to come from somewhere. It was all waaay to coincidental to just be everything just happening the line-up wrong, which the "there is no higher force or karma" would force me to believe. And I'd much prefer to see it as a lesson being taught than something malevolent &*()ng off at my expense.




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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2017, 04:26:36 pm »
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I'm an atheist for all intents-and-purposes. Don't believe in anything supernatural, mystic, psychic, magical, spiritual, etc. I just subscribe to the best scientific knowledge of the universe that we have, and I accept that what we don't know now will probably (or may never) be explained by science in the future.

It doesn't make sense to me that our universe was created by something for some reason. First off, for there to be a life form that can act with intent and intelligence, I don't think it could exist outside of the universe and then create it; how does a living thing create everything? (and to those who say God isn't a living thing, then how did it create something like the universe, which is a physical thing?) Second, I don't think there is any reason "why" the universe was created that makes sense. If it was made for us, that's just false cuz we're incredibly small and kind of meaningless in the universe. Was the goal just to have fun, see what happens when you create space and time? Um that doesn't make sense either.

The most logical and reasonable thing for me to believe is that there is no reason why the universe exists, it just does. Life and everything else doesn't need a "why" for it to be meaningful for me; humans don't need to have been created for a purpose.
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2017, 07:45:03 pm »
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I am a Christian principally because I believe that Christianity is true - the cornerstone event of Christianity upon which the religion is based is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.  I believe that the historical case for this is very strong and that the testimony of the apostles is credible.

Here is an excellent video which can explain these points far better than myself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN2EKL7E2Vg

There is also the personal evidence of my personal relationship with Jesus through prayer and studying the Word, though I think it's important to underline that for me, my faith begins with historical truth, that is the truth of the New Testament in both the events that occurred and its theology.
This is essentially what I have to say on the subject.  The Christian faith contains a remarkable truth that is missing in nearly every other religion I've seen: that no matter how good we are, we can never be "good enough" to earn God's favor and get into heaven.  Most religions in the world are based on the idea that you can earn your way into heaven/paradise by simply being a good person.  For me, it's far easier to admit that you're flawed, have not always done what is right, and will never make it without a redeemer. 

Can I prove that what I believe is true?  No, but I can give very strong factual evidence outside of my holy book to support it.  Would I like to convince others to believe the same way?  Not necessarily; I respect the right of others to believe as they choose, out of respect for the freedom of choice that God has given them.
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 03:32:36 am »
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I do not believe in any god or religion, because I think that a large part of things considered true by all religions are completely disproved by science. Religion, in my view, was just a way to explain things humans did not understand and, because it was controlled by the elites, a way to control people. Now that humanity has advanced, science keeps finding answers to our greatest of questions, answers that stand against those provided by religion. So while there is no proof god doesn't exist, there is also no proof he does, and there is proof that many of the things written in his book(s) are false and wrong. In my view, when someone makes a claim like "unicorns exist", "magic exists", or, yes, "god exists", they have to prove it to me before I believe them- it is not I who need to prove to them that their claim is false, because this is not how it works.
Furthermore, I find that religion has always been a great cause of war and suffering, and as a gay person, refuse to adher to the belief that my life is a sin. On the contrary- I find it ridiculous.
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 07:17:13 pm »
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I have heard many of you say what you believe, but I would like to know why.

Do you base your belief on anything of substance? Can you prove that what you believe is true? Can you make a good argument for believing as you do? Can or would you like to convince others to believe the same way? I see many politic arguments; how about some philosophical or religious arguments?

On the flip side, do have any comment (arguments) why the beliefs of others are contrary to your own ethics or logical thinking?

We Gnostic Christians believe as we do due to Gnosis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

Most of what I believe is based on morals and ethics. If a God or the religion he spawned cannot act ethically or show the best moral position then that God or religion cannot be seen as the best.

Especially, Christianity and Islam, given that both Christianity and Islam have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2017, 04:38:12 pm »
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I don't believe in God because I just don't see any reason to believe that such an entity exists.
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2017, 03:18:08 pm »
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I don't believe in God because I just don't see any reason to believe that such an entity exists.

Reason and logic play havoc with  belief.

That is why the early church would even kill people for reading their books and telling the more illiterate the truth of what they found.

I recommend to all top read all the bible. That will speed up the death of Christianity like nothing else.

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DL
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2017, 05:09:56 am »
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I believe that the Lord God created the universe
I believe that he sent his only son to die for my sins
And I believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America
I am a Mormon!
And a Mormon just believes
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2017, 05:27:00 am »
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I believe that the Lord God created the universe
I believe that he sent his only son to die for my sins
And I believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America
I am a Mormon!
And a Mormon just believes

It seems you believe what your bible says cannot happen.

It says that substitutionary punishment is immoral and unjust.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

You do not care about the immorality of substitutionary punishment. Right?

Regards
DL
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