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| | |-+  Smoking age of 21?
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Poll
Question: How would you feel about having to be 21 to buy cigarettes?
A national smoking age of 21 would be a good thing   -18 (21.2%)
The states should feel free to raise their smoking age, but the federal government should stay out of it   -14 (16.5%)
Municipalities should feel free to raise their smoking age, but the states and the federal government should stay out of it   -4 (4.7%)
No way! Old enough to fight...   -37 (43.5%)
If anything, 18 is too high a smoking age   -7 (8.2%)
There shouldn't be a smoking age   -5 (5.9%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 85

Author Topic: Smoking age of 21?  (Read 1891 times)
Gay Republican
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2017, 01:38:38 pm »

Absolutely Not....

Smoking and drinking should be legal at the age of 18, and if anything driving should be illegal for anyone under the age of 18, with the possible exception of having an adult >21 in the vehicle.

Couldn't have said it better than Ole Barry.

It is kind of amazing how disturbingly paternalistic both forces on the left and the right are on matters that should be left to an individual's best judgment.  Of course only those with the loudest mouths and the biggest pocketbooks get their opinions heard which is why privileged s who live in gated communities in Greenwich are more likely to have an influence on public policy than say a middle class barkeep or policeman in Attleboro.

Frankly as a gay man who loves to smoke and drink and 420 I find the exercise of moral judgments by both religious fruitcake conservatives and nanny state liberals to be quite frustrating.  I shouldn't have to live in a country where virtually every aspect of my personal life ends up subject to moral regulation because some rich prick who has friends in a freaking Roman Classical built building in DC doesn't like it.

Here's an idea folks: how about going after people who are doing things that are actually evil?  Like molesting kids, abusing wives, or killing a bunch of people inside a McDonald's for the Hell of it?

Rant over.
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2017, 01:58:01 pm »

Absolutely Not....

Smoking and drinking should be legal at the age of 18, and if anything driving should be illegal for anyone under the age of 18, with the possible exception of having an adult >21 in the vehicle.

Couldn't have said it better than Ole Barry.

It is kind of amazing how disturbingly paternalistic both forces on the left and the right are on matters that should be left to an individual's best judgment.  Of course only those with the loudest mouths and the biggest pocketbooks get their opinions heard which is why privileged s who live in gated communities in Greenwich are more likely to have an influence on public policy than say a middle class barkeep or policeman in Attleboro.

Frankly as a gay man who loves to smoke and drink and 420 I find the exercise of moral judgments by both religious fruitcake conservatives and nanny state liberals to be quite frustrating.  I shouldn't have to live in a country where virtually every aspect of my personal life ends up subject to moral regulation because some rich prick who has friends in a freaking Roman Classical built building in DC doesn't like it.

Here's an idea folks: how about going after people who are doing things that are actually evil?  Like molesting kids, abusing wives, or killing a bunch of people inside a McDonald's for the Hell of it?

Rant over.
Interestingly, I find that nanny state liberals are more puritanical than religious conservatives. Who founded and supported MADD? Nanny state liberals. Who freaks out about nudity in media? Nanny state liberals. While it's religious conservatives who think that sexually active teenagers should be denied contraception and abortions, it's nanny state liberals who want to put them on the sex offender registry.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 02:01:20 pm by darklordoftech »Logged
RFayette
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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2017, 05:35:13 pm »

Also worth noting that, as with alcohol, the main advantage of raising the age is that it keeps the substance out of high schools. The 19-20 year olds aren't really the direct targets, not that it's any consolation to someone facing charges.

It's worth noting it appears the penalties apply to vendors and adults who give tobacco to minors, but penalties for users were removed from the final bill, which seems reasonable to me.  Vendors should be the primary target, not users.  The key is to make it require more hoops for someone to purchase tobacco, so it is discouraged before people get addicted.  Prohibition of sales to minors is not a total panacea, but I think it helps. 

http://www.530attorneys.com/new-california-tobacco-law/
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2017, 06:23:07 pm »

Also worth noting that, as with alcohol, the main advantage of raising the age is that it keeps the substance out of high schools. The 19-20 year olds aren't really the direct targets, not that it's any consolation to someone facing charges.

It's worth noting it appears the penalties apply to vendors and adults who give tobacco to minors, but penalties for users were removed from the final bill, which seems reasonable to me.  Vendors should be the primary target, not users.  The key is to make it require more hoops for someone to purchase tobacco, so it is discouraged before people get addicted.  Prohibition of sales to minors is not a total panacea, but I think it helps. 

http://www.530attorneys.com/new-california-tobacco-law/
My problem with punishing the minors themselves are:

1. It's punishing the victim.

2 It might discourage minors from seeking out resources to quit.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2017, 10:22:12 pm »

Absolutely Not....

Smoking and drinking should be legal at the age of 18, and if anything driving should be illegal for anyone under the age of 18, with the possible exception of having an adult >21 in the vehicle.

Couldn't have said it better than Ole Barry.

It is kind of amazing how disturbingly paternalistic both forces on the left and the right are on matters that should be left to an individual's best judgment.  Of course only those with the loudest mouths and the biggest pocketbooks get their opinions heard which is why privileged s who live in gated communities in Greenwich are more likely to have an influence on public policy than say a middle class barkeep or policeman in Attleboro.

Frankly as a gay man who loves to smoke and drink and 420 I find the exercise of moral judgments by both religious fruitcake conservatives and nanny state liberals to be quite frustrating.  I shouldn't have to live in a country where virtually every aspect of my personal life ends up subject to moral regulation because some rich prick who has friends in a freaking Roman Classical built building in DC doesn't like it.

Here's an idea folks: how about going after people who are doing things that are actually evil?  Like molesting kids, abusing wives, or killing a bunch of people inside a McDonald's for the Hell of it?

Rant over.

Awesome!!!!

Gay Republican--- we are totally on the same page on all this stuff....

Sounds like we have a lot in common on Social Issues, and probably quite a few other items as well.

Since I've already gone off on the subject of smoking---- what does everyone think about "Sin Taxes"?

Apparently it's one of the few types of taxes that can be raised in both Democratic and Republican States alike....

If you drink alcohol, guess what your taxes went up.

If you smoke, guess what your taxes went up.

If you indulge in other "socially stigmatized behavior", guess what your taxes went up.

Needless to say these types of taxes hit the poor, working-class, and lower-middle-class populations the hardest, but who stands up to defend against these tax increases?

Meanwhile, voters try to raise the minimum wage, some states try to raise taxes on upper-income voters and corporations, or at a Federal Level  Minimum Wage increases and slightly higher tax burden on the Rich, and you have an onslaught of so-called "anti-tax" conservatives frothing at the bit....

It's always the poor that suffer.... famous quote from somewhere....
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2017, 09:50:44 am »

Just give people a choice, you can smoke but you can't get any health insurance.
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2017, 11:41:06 am »

Just give people a choice, you can smoke but you can't get any health insurance.
Don't health insurance companies already charge smokers more?
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Good Grumps With A Gun
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2017, 11:42:27 am »

Just give people a choice, you can smoke but you can't get any health insurance.
Don't health insurance companies already charge smokers more?

Yes
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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2017, 11:50:05 am »

Just give people a choice, you can smoke but you can't get any health insurance.
Don't health insurance companies already charge smokers more?
Yeah, but you see, MasterJedi doesn't believe in personal responsibility, he believes in letting people he doesn't like die.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2017, 12:09:54 pm »

Just give people a choice, you can smoke but you can't get any health insurance.
Don't health insurance companies already charge smokers more?
Yeah, but you see, MasterJedi doesn't believe in personal responsibility, he believes in letting people he doesn't like die.

It's the ultimate in personal responsibility, don't smoke and get coverage!
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ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2017, 04:50:57 pm »

Just give people a choice, you can smoke but you can't get any health insurance.
Don't health insurance companies already charge smokers more?
Yeah, but you see, MasterJedi doesn't believe in personal responsibility, he believes in letting people he doesn't like die.

It's the ultimate in personal responsibility, don't smoke and get coverage!
I'm glad second hand smoke is as dangerous for you as it is for us. Maybe you should have avoided smokers better. Oh well, get sick and die, etc, etc. I didn't know you were into that kind of economic nihilism.

Christ you are the ultimate pre-Trump Republican.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:13:19 pm by The Mooch! »Logged

darklordoftech
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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2017, 01:45:27 pm »

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_598b23b9e4b0449ed50734fd
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☭ Comrade BBovine ☭
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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2017, 09:03:12 pm »

if the law says you're an adult at 18, then you should be able to do anything any other adult can do
The age of majority should be raised to 21.
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Razze
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2017, 01:52:36 pm »

I see no issue with a smoking age of 21.  Tobacco kills, and even if the reduction in juvenile consumption of tobacco is small because of the change, it is still worthwhile for that marginal effect.
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2017, 08:12:54 pm »

Why not be compassionate towards teenage smokers and drinkers like we are towards opiod addicts?
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MB
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 11:24:45 pm »

No. And lower the everything-age to 18. Or keep it lower if it's lower. Banning stuff JUST DOESN'T WORK. People who smoke will smoke and people who drink will drink.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2017, 02:05:07 pm »

Absolutely lower the age to 18. Paternalism has no place when it comes to the behavior of adults.

And I agree with increasing penalties for drunk driving and tightening the areas where smoking is allowed. Those are for the common good, unlike banning personal smoking by taking away people's rights as legal adults.
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Green Line
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« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2017, 02:28:52 pm »

It is a state issue.  Let them decide.
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politicallefty
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« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2017, 03:31:17 am »

It is a state issue.  Let them decide.

That's not an answer. You're dodging the question. I don't think most people here would disagree and would in fact extend the same protection to the drinking age. What do you think should be done with the smoking age, in your own state and perhaps in others?
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2017, 04:19:37 am »

It is a state issue.  Let them decide.

That's not an answer. You're dodging the question. I don't think most people here would disagree and would in fact extend the same protection to the drinking age. What do you think should be done with the smoking age, in your own state and perhaps in others?
As the OP of this thread, I consider Green Line's answer acceptable.
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2017, 08:34:48 am »

No, 18 seems enough. I'm generally opposed to frequent smoking, but a minimum age of 21 is not the solution. What's really needed is more and better prevention. By parents, but also at school. Same with excessive drinking.
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« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2017, 01:35:43 pm »

No. And lower the everything-age to 18. Or keep it lower if it's lower. Banning stuff JUST DOESN'T WORK. People who smoke will smoke and people who drink will drink.
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« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2017, 05:37:22 pm »

the best argument  (and what I've seen from actual, err, evidence, as opposed to gut punches) would be to raise it to 19 to reduce the amount cigarettes in schools. Not that I particularly care about the issue at all.
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Figueira
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« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2017, 05:19:39 pm »

Ehhhhhhhhh. I don't really care about this like I care about other youth rights issues.
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2017, 10:29:05 pm »

Most of the arguments that I've seen for a smoking age of 21 ("healthcare costs", that people can't be trusted to obey no-smoking signs, "lost productivity") could also be used as arguments against legalizing marijuana.
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