Concert of Europe: Rules and General Discussion Thread
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  Concert of Europe: Rules and General Discussion Thread
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Author Topic: Concert of Europe: Rules and General Discussion Thread  (Read 29104 times)
MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #275 on: September 16, 2017, 12:11:10 PM »

I don't want to look as somebody trying to be holding the game hostage, but I'm not going to lie: I've had a great chemistry with Lumine during the play and I have hard time seeing it being such a fun without him.

Thank you for your message, Spamage. I'll adress it later.
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windjammer
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« Reply #276 on: September 16, 2017, 12:22:02 PM »

I don't want to look as somebody trying to be holding the game hostage, but I'm not going to lie: I've had a great chemistry with Lumine during the play and I have hard time seeing it being such a fun without him.

Thank you for your message, Spamage. I'll adress it later.
That's why Lumine needs to remain in the game too!


Look, at least please wait for the end of the war before leaving. That would be sad to end a game, particularly this one that is so fantastic!
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #277 on: September 16, 2017, 01:09:40 PM »

OK, this is the first time I'm requesting such a thing, but I'd like to have pause in the game to see if this can be solved.

I had a great chemistry with Lumine and I honestly can't see myself proceeding as usual if he departs.
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windjammer
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« Reply #278 on: September 16, 2017, 01:12:40 PM »

OK, this is the first time I'm requesting such a thing, but I'd like to have pause in the game to see if this can be solved.

I had a great chemistry with Lumine and I honestly can't see myself proceeding as usual if he departs.
I'm fine with that.
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Spamage
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« Reply #279 on: September 16, 2017, 01:30:22 PM »

OK, this is the first time I'm requesting such a thing, but I'd like to have pause in the game to see if this can be solved.

I had a great chemistry with Lumine and I honestly can't see myself proceeding as usual if he departs.
I'm fine with that.


I too would like to have it pause while this is sorted out and so I can reassess where we stand.

Peope can keep posting in the gameplay thread, but the update will be slightly delayed.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #280 on: September 16, 2017, 03:22:36 PM »

Oh, one thing that I just noticed. There's no mention of any Ottoman-Austrian clashes, and I believe I sent my forces to action.

This is confusing.
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Lumine
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« Reply #281 on: September 16, 2017, 04:42:37 PM »

At Kalwejt's request I'll hold off by a day or two on the final decision, although at the moment I don't forsee changing my mind.

I would encourage the rest to keep playing though, leaving is a personal decision and I have no  desire to kill the game (on the contrary).
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windjammer
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« Reply #282 on: September 16, 2017, 05:12:01 PM »

At Kalwejt's request I'll hold off by a day or two on the final decision, although at the moment I don't forsee changing my mind.

I would encourage the rest to keep playing though, leaving is a personal decision and I have no  desire to kill the game (on the contrary).
If you want to leave, could you at least delay it for the end of the war please?
Otherwise I think it would kill the game and we have all put a lot of energy in it.
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Lumine
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« Reply #283 on: September 16, 2017, 05:17:10 PM »

At Kalwejt's request I'll hold off by a day or two on the final decision, although at the moment I don't forsee changing my mind.

I would encourage the rest to keep playing though, leaving is a personal decision and I have no  desire to kill the game (on the contrary).
If you want to leave, could you at least delay it for the end of the war please?
Otherwise I think it would kill the game and we have all put a lot of energy in it.

My sincere apologies, Windjammer, but no, it's best if I either leave for good or stay until the very end so there's no ambiguity.

Staying until the "end of war" only to leave then would mean I get to spend too much time and effort for basically nothing.
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windjammer
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« Reply #284 on: September 16, 2017, 05:18:17 PM »

At Kalwejt's request I'll hold off by a day or two on the final decision, although at the moment I don't forsee changing my mind.

I would encourage the rest to keep playing though, leaving is a personal decision and I have no  desire to kill the game (on the contrary).
If you want to leave, could you at least delay it for the end of the war please?
Otherwise I think it would kill the game and we have all put a lot of energy in it.

My sincere apologies, Windjammer, but no, it's best if I either leave for good or stay until the very end so there's no ambiguity.

Staying until the "end of war" only to leave then would mean I get to spend too much time and effort for basically nothing.
Sad

Maybe you and dereich should try to reconcile with each others?
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windjammer
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« Reply #285 on: September 16, 2017, 05:21:00 PM »

A solution exists for every problem !
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #286 on: September 16, 2017, 05:23:58 PM »

Lumine leaves, I'm leaving too. This is a matter of principle and solidarity for me.
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Dereich
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« Reply #287 on: September 16, 2017, 11:50:17 PM »

As my conduct has been called into question, I intend to defend my actions. Needless to say, I believe that everything I have done makes sense both in and out of game and is perfectly justified.

However, as I've been busy at a football game all day and my post is stretching longer, it'll have to wait until tomorrow when I can finish it.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #288 on: September 17, 2017, 01:06:52 AM »

Fwiw, I wouldn't say I attacked Dereich's "conduct". It would be utterly idiotic for me or Lumine to threathen to quit/appeal to a moderator because Dereich choose to continue fighting. He's totally entitled to this, and we're not entitled to expect things being made easier for us.

I'll however stand by my opinion the Austria switch was a serious error which, even with no ill-will here, had to do damage to the game setup and I've explained why.

I've never been a fan of a losing player being able to rejoin immediately after suffering a game-over, because it makes things less competitive and less real. However, jumping from one country to other in the middle, especially a country belonging to other camp, is extremely problematic and I've explained why I feel so.
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Dereich
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« Reply #289 on: September 17, 2017, 01:24:00 AM »
« Edited: September 17, 2017, 01:33:45 AM by Dereich »

Fwiw, I wouldn't say I attacked Dereich's "conduct". It would be utterly idiotic for me or Lumine to threathen to quit/appeal to a moderator because Dereich choose to continue fighting. He's totally entitled to this, and we're not entitled to expect things being made easier for us.

I'll however stand by my opinion the Austria switch was a serious error which, even with no ill-will here, had to do damage to the game setup and I've explained why.

I've never been a fan of a losing player being able to rejoin immediately after suffering a game-over, because it makes things less competitive and less real. However, jumping from one country to other in the middle, especially a country belonging to other camp, is extremely problematic and I've explained why I feel so.

Since I'm still awake and this is immediately relevant, I'll post this part now.

I'll start by saying I had already been looking to switch countries before TimTurner left Austria. Portugal was small, my options to act were limited, and I unable to influence discussions I was uncomfortable with. Plus, the Marquis de Pombal was so effective in his actions in IRL Portugal, all of my non-military moves consisted of "Do X exactly like Pombal did IRL." At first, my intention was to go for Spain, a major power who was basically sitting unused.

After the death of Maria Theresa, TimTurner decided he was no longer going to play as Austria. Already looking for another option, Austria looked very appealing very fast. My initial thought was that I was going to be playing as Joseph himself, forced to negotiate my way out of captivity. When I got the green light from Spamage, I learned that I'd instead be playing as Francis. It made sense; Joseph was a 14 year old child and, as I quickly learned, wouldn't even be eligible to be King of Hungary until a Diet was called.

Just addressing your complaint about the problems from switching, I'm at a loss for what I should have done. I had expressed a desire to leave Portugal. I would have stayed if I had to, but frankly looking for new and innovative places to invade the French with little resistance while watching Europe get completely remade wouldn't be very fun and I wasn't looking forward to it. If Spain HAD fallen vacant and I had moved, I would have had the same knowledge and probably would have joined the war for one side or another. Would THAT have been just as serious an issue? Would ANY switch have been a serious error or should I have been forced to stay within the alliance?

Going through my logs and PMs I can't find anything in particular that would involve me using knowledge I learned from playing as Portugal. But of course that issue can wait; you can read them and judge for yourself once I finish writing everything up.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #290 on: September 17, 2017, 02:14:31 AM »

We have a fundamental failure to communicate here. I've really enjoyed this game, but I'm not going to waste more of my time and nerves on this nonsense. I'm only regretting time and efforts put into this. It's clear we won't be able to agree on this technical, but crucial issue.

Congrats, you can have it by default. Strategy games are not the same anymore. Apologies to Spamage, you've done the best job you possibly could under the circumstances.
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Dereich
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« Reply #291 on: September 17, 2017, 02:23:50 AM »

So much of what I've been writing is not pertinent to Kal's stated concerns and after that last message I clearly can't keep working for now. I'll post what I have that I think IS relevant to those and if there are any other issues or PMs that might be relevant, those can always be posted later.

I sat back and waited for terms, preparing by going over some other terms from wars Austria lost.  They wanted the Kingdoms of Bohemia and Croatia in their entirety. Plus, any attempt to negotiate would mean upping their demand to include Hungary as well. It had taken very very little time in research to figure out what the loss of Bohemia would mean. Bohemia was by population larger than the Kingdom of Hungary and more importantly was an HRE elector. The last time the Hapsburgs lost the Bohemian vote, they lost the HRE crown for the first time in centuries. Losing Bohemia (especially if the Prussians intended to annex the Electorate of Saxony) would mean permanently losing the Holy Roman Empire to Prussia.

This gets me to one of Kal's points: I put a lot of stock into the difference between the monarch and the Monarchy. If it came down to it, I was perfectly prepared to see Joseph die to protect the Monarchy. (On a side note, I was completely sure that choice wouldn't happen; if forced to REALLY make that decision in-character I would have given in and agreed to anything to protect my son.) The Hapsburg Monarchy would not be "essentially decapitated" by losing a 14 year old boy. It WOULD be decapitated by losing the Empire and the crown jewel of that Empire. My decision on those peace terms was entirely based on the terms presented. The only "plan or strategy" I can think of that might have influenced my decisionmaking was the theoretical plan to dismember France...a plan that I would know about in-character since Lumine's peace proposal mentioned the partial return of Lorraine after France was defeated and partitioned.

When I began making military orders, I don't think anything I knew or used could have come from secret knowledge; I left soon after the turn began. I tried to look at the situation from a purely objective standpoint. I made maps. And while I tried to think of things from the enemy perspective, I don't think any of it used particularly secret knowledge.

As for the willingness of the Austrians to act, I REALLY had to work at it just to keep them from murdering me and to keep Austria from immediately falling apart. I have no doubt that if I was unlucky and hadn't had the huge boost of the HRE dissolution I would have lost this turn. I said as much to my allies in the time between last turn's end and Lumine's HRE announcement.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #292 on: September 17, 2017, 03:22:33 AM »

I'm sorry it's irrelevant now. I can't see a way for me to resume things as they were.

It's been a fun. Nothing personal, guys.
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windjammer
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« Reply #293 on: September 17, 2017, 04:36:57 AM »

Alright,

It's time to give my personal opinion on this.


Well first of all, I indeed wouldn't have played the same way Dereich would have played Austria. If I were him, I would have tried to negotiate peace, and only losing Bohemia. However, it does make sense that he wanted to continue the war. For 2 reasons:
- the first one: Francis and Maria Theresa loved each others, it is definitely possible thaty he would have chosen to back his former enemies (ME!) in order to avenge the woman he loved so much.
- the second one: you simply made demands he couldn't accept. Austria was going to lose more territories than it has ever had under Napoleon.

I understand you're pissed that things didn't go your ways, and I know you're going to say "but we controlled Maria Theresa's children!". Well, when Francis I of France was captured, his mother was still being able his army and to make battle with Charles Quint, in fact, Dereich's conditions to play Austria were far more harsher than the ones for Louise de Savoie.

Then, you raised the point of "Dereich leaving Portugal made them exit the war".  Well, that is true. But look at all the things I had to give, Saint-Domingue, it wasn't an easy peace. And me too I lost allies when being NPC, example Poland leaving the war, while they just killed their monarch because he joined their side,...

I understand that things didn't go on your way, but there are two reasons explaining that:
- The first one the most important: Dereich is just a genius.
-The second one: with all due respect, you were too overconfident. You imposed harsh conditions than neither France nor Austria could accept, you destroyed the Holy Roman Empire,... You made mistakes, like I made mistakes too btw.

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windjammer
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« Reply #294 on: September 17, 2017, 05:11:38 AM »

I'm fine with Kalwejt controlling both the countries until the war is over btw.
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windjammer
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« Reply #295 on: September 17, 2017, 05:15:57 AM »

Anyway,
If both don't want to be back, I refuse this game ends.

I motion for Gotfan taking control of Prussia and kingpoleon taking control of the Ottomans. Or if both refuse, to find new players.
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windjammer
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« Reply #296 on: September 17, 2017, 05:44:59 AM »

I'm committed to make this game continue.


Spamage, kingpoleon, gotfan, you would be fine with kingpoleon taking the ottomans and gotfan Prussia if both Lumine and Kalwejt leave this game?

(I would be fine as well with Kal cotrolling both armies if he doesn't leave).

If not, I will make recruitment for 2 players.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #297 on: September 17, 2017, 07:58:45 AM »

Look, I don't want to wreck the game on leaving so I could stay on on a caretaker basis the way Windjammer proposed.
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windjammer
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« Reply #298 on: September 17, 2017, 07:59:56 AM »

Look, I don't want to wreck the game on leaving so I could stay on on a caretaker basis the way Windjammer proposed.

So here we go!

Kalwejt controlling the Prussian army until the war ends.

Anyone fine with that? Tongue

I'm fine with that!
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windjammer
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« Reply #299 on: September 17, 2017, 08:13:22 AM »

Now, let's continue to play the game!!!
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